Could God forgive without crucifixion?

[Clete]

Hold on for just a minute. The death of Jesus was not unjust but, the cause of the injustice was no one else but his own disciples who were acclaiming Jesus king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem. That's what caused Jesus to be crucified. As an evidence of the truth, Jesus verdict was nailed on the top of his cross which read INRI. Crucifixion was the punishment for the insurrection to be acclaimed king in a Roman province. Read Luke 19:37-40.

The bible states directly that the Jews decided that Jesus must die when they witnessed the resurrection of Lazarus.
See John 11:45-57

 

[Clete]

Obviously you did not even read my response, because I said God is totally just and so what happen with the crucifixion is totally just and fair, so that also means it cannot be penal substitution by a willing volunteer.

I read it. Your giving God lip service doesn't change what you actually believe and the logical consequences thereof.

 

[Ktoyou]

Bling,

You are a lunatic. I should have known better than to address your post in the first place.

:wave:



Anyone else who even suggests that Jesus' death was unjust will find themselves on my permanent ignore list. If I have to put this whole website on ignore by not posting here ever again, that's precisely what I'll do. The mere suggestion that Jesus' death was unjust, a death which HE ORCHESTRATED and allowed to occur ON PURPOSE and VOLUNTARILY, is straight up blasphemy and I simply will not put up with it any further. I'm not going to argue it and I'm not interested in discussing it any further. That's it and that's all.

Clete

He is a bad guy!

 

[genuineoriginal]

Well you got one thing right, I will not accept it. If you do not repent of this heresy you will spend eternity paying your own sin debt. You have rejected the very gospel itself and are NOT a Christian in the biblical sense of the word. You are worshiping the wrong Jesus.

Have you ever heard of Sola Scriptura?
Do you believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God?

The Bible does state that God created the heavens and the earth, God sent His only Son, the Son of God died on the cross, and God raised the Son of God from the dead.

I can provide the verses that show what the Bible states.

Genesis 1:1 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.​

John 3:16-18 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

John 9:35 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?​

Hebrews 12:2 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

Acts 4:10 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.​

Romans 10:9 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

 

[Ben Masada]

The bible states directly that the Jews decided that Jesus must die when they witnessed the resurrection of Lazarus.
See John 11:45-57

Clete, What you say above could not be true. Jesus was a loyal Jew and the Jews could never do this to a fellow Jew who had come to confirm the Law and the Prophets. (Mat. 5:17-19) Don't forget that the John who wrote that gospel was a Hellenist of the same line of Paul's and not John the apostle. He had to write according to Paul's orientation. Besides, this forgery was perpetrated in the 4th Century by the Church to make it easier for the Church to be elected as the religion of the Roman Empire. Emperor Constantine was considering to do that but the charge that Rome had crucified the "Christian God," was getting on the way.

Now, as the resurrection of Lazarus is concern, it was a parable. Every thing is possible in a parable; even hell-fire to exist. (Luke 16:29-31)

 

[Clete]

Have you ever heard of Sola Scriptura?
Do you believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God?

Yes, to both questions.

This is why I quoted the passage in John that explicitly states that the Creator became flesh.

That, by the way, is the whole point! Not just the whole point of what I've been saying on this thread but of Christianity itself.

There is only one God, there is only One worthy of worship. Jesus is that God and He voluntarily laid down His own life to pay your sin debt and then He rose from the grave by His Own power, which is the power of the Holy Spirit which has been given to those who are in Him by faith unto His righteousness which has been imputed unto the same. (John 10:17-18 & Romans 8:9-11)

You sound like a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness for crying out loud! Jesus is THE singular God, who existed in the beginning and become flesh and dwelt among us. There's a really excellent reason why John begins his gospel by making that point. That reason being precisely because he was portraying Jesus as God. Matthew portrays Jesus as Messiah, the King of the Jews. Mark portrays Jesus as a servant. Luke, the doctor, portrays Jesus as the Son of Man, a human being. John portrays Jesus as not merely the Son of God but as God the Son, the Creator of the Heavens, the Earth and all that is in them.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Clete, What you say above could not be true. Jesus was a loyal Jew and the Jews could never do this to a fellow Jew who had come to confirm the Law and the Prophets. (Mat. 5:17-19) Don't forget that the John who wrote that gospel was a Hellenist of the same line of Paul's and not John the apostle. He had to write according to Paul's orientation. Besides, this forgery was perpetrated in the 4th Century by the Church to make it easier for the Church to be elected as the religion of the Roman Empire. Emperor Constantine was considering to do that but the charge that Rome had crucified the "Christian God," was getting on the way.

Now, as the resurrection of Lazarus is concern, it was a parable. Every thing is possible in a parable; even hell-fire to exist. (Luke 16:29-31)

What in the world are you even doing here? Get away from me and don't ever - EVER - speak to me again.

 

[Predi]

CDon't forget that the John who wrote that gospel was a Hellenist of the same line of Paul's and not John the apostle.

Another John? Where is this idea coming from?

 

[God's Truth]

I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

...because God says.

 

[Crucible]

Forgiveness requires cost. It is why sacrifice and eye for eye were central to atonement before Christ.

 

[iouae]

I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

Great question.

God, being God can do anything, including forgive without the crucifixion, as you note, how some were forgiven in the OT before the crucifixion.

But note how few were saved before vs. afterwards. The death of Christ so impresses us because we see the love of God and commitment of God to "Project Save Man". God would never send His Son to die if this project were not supremely important and everlasting. We are so impressed by the LOVE of God, vs. the LAW of God, that folks are storming into the kingdom by force (Matt 11:12). This is one of any number of ways that God could have saved mankind, but it is the best (though most costly) way.

 

[Predi]

Great question.

Thanks

But note how few were saved before vs. afterwards.

Sorry, but how can I note that? Where do you get numbers of saved in the OT/NT??

 

[iouae]

Thanks




Sorry, but how can I note that? Where do you get numbers of saved in the OT/NT??

Today the world is being saved (2 billion Christians). BC a few Israelites and nobody else was being saved. That's where I get my numbers.

 

[Predi]

Forgiveness requires cost. It is why sacrifice and eye for eye were central to atonement before Christ.

Forgiveness requires cost? I would call it a payment then. Forgiveness requires love. And I never saw the "eye for eye" as the main rule in OT. It was barely mentioned, and most bible scholars believe the purpose of it was not to take revenge, but not to take it above the fault (ONE eye for an eye, not TWO).

In my opinion it's hard to find something describing God's character as well as the parable of the prodigal son!

 

[Predi]

Today the world is being saved (2 billion Christians). BC a few Israelites and nobody else was being saved. That's where I get my numbers.

Did you actually see this "a few Israelites and nobody else was being saved" in the Bible? Where exactly, if yes?

 

[iouae]

Did you actually see this "a few Israelites and nobody else was being saved" in the Bible? Where exactly, if yes?

OK, I get it now. You must be one of those from the school "all are born saved". If so, state your agenda so I don't have to play "20 questions". Otherwise, it is obvious that few had heard of the true God BC, and since there is no other name given whereby one can be saved, nobody was being saved who did not know Jesus, AD and BC.

 

[Predi]

OK, I get it now. You must be one of those from the school "all are born saved".

I've never even heard this phrase or about such a school. Assumption... failed.

If so, state your agenda so I don't have to play "20 questions".

I was honestly interested if you based your conclusions on some scriptures.

But no problem, I can state my agenda.

For me it's unthinkable to believe that God eternally saves people based on where and when you are born.

2 billion Christians - but this number includes nominal ones - so shortly speaking you believe that just because I was born in a Christian family in the XX century, and not in the Far East in the XX century, and not anywhere else before I century... just because of that I will be saved and they all won't?

So yes, I indeed was interested if you based this incredible idea on the Bible.

and since there is no other name given whereby one can be saved, nobody was being saved who did not know Jesus, AD and BC.

Would you allow the possibility that people can get saved without hearing about Jesus during their earthly life?

 

[iouae]

I've never even heard this phrase or about such a school. Assumption... failed.



I was honestly interested if you based your conclusions on some scriptures.

But no problem, I can state my agenda.

For me it's unthinkable to believe that God eternally saves people based on where and when you are born.

2 billion Christians - but this number includes nominal ones - so shortly speaking you believe that just because I was born in a Christian family in the XX century, and not in the Far East in the XX century, and not anywhere else before I century... just because of that I will be saved and they all won't?

So yes, I indeed was interested if you based this incredible idea on the Bible.



Would you allow the possibility that people can get saved without hearing about Jesus during their earthly life?

Predi, your last sentence shows you are from a similar school to the one you denied belonging to in the first sentence.

No, I don't allow for the possibility of folks being saved never hearing about Jesus or His name, since the good Book says in Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

 

[Predi]

Predi, your last sentence shows you are from a similar school to the one you denied belonging to in the first sentence.

No, I don't allow for the possibility of folks being saved never hearing about Jesus or His name, since the good Book says in Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

I denied I heard about this school I'm pretty sure with my beliefs - no school would want me

I just read the Bible. And the Bible says God is fair.

Can you just tell me one more thing... how can you allow any possibility for someone from OT to be saved then?

 

[freelight]

In my opinion it's hard to find something describing God's character as well as the parable of the prodigal son!

And notice no one had to die for the prodigal son to have his father forgive him, his joy was that he returned (repented). 'Repentance'(change of mind, transformation of consciousness) has always been the way souls re-turn to 'God'.