Church and Government

[Jacob]

Shalom!

I am wondering about God's Law in Government. If we don't find it in the Church because the church doesn't have courts or believes in the New Covenant Law instead of the Law of Moses, does God's Law have a place somewhere else such as in government to include the law of the land? What commandments of God should be a part of our nation's laws? I don't want to impede upon government as a religious Jew or Christian. Maybe we should have our own law courts. But what do we do when it seems like the law is not in place anywhere in our lives?

I am a New Covenant believer who observes some of the Law of Moses. For example, I sometimes wear tzitzit but I don't have phylacteries. I wear a kippah at times as well. It is rabbinical as may be the belief that one man and one woman is what defines marriage (not one man and more than one wife).

Since God's Law is about love of God and love of our neighbor I don't know why anyone would reject it. However, I believe that I have been forgiven, am being forgiven, or will be forgiven for crimes that I have committed against God's Law and whatever law agrees with it.

I want to live according to the Spirit of God and not be under Law.

 

[TrumpTrainCA]

Do you believe in "Free Will"?

I have a reason for asking, I am not trying to go off topic.

 

[Jacob]

Do you believe in "Free Will"?

I have a reason for asking, I am not trying to go off topic.

I believe that my will is free to make decisions. Not to sin. No freedom to sin.

 

[exminister]

I think the Bible clearly shows when the faithful get involved in worldly politics it soils them and gives God a bad name. We know how bad it went Israel wanted a King. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world. Paul focused on the church in his counseling and reprimands and not the world.

Now being devoted to the president as King sweeps away any moral integrity.

As Isaiah wrote to his people Come out of Babylon.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I think the Bible clearly shows when the faithful get involved in worldly politics it soils them and gives God a bad name.

With the current political layout we have now, that is certainly true. But that is a result of Christians LEAVING the seats of power.

In other words, we shouldn't abandon government altogether. Rather, we should continue to advocate what is good and just and right, even in the face of a wicked government.

We know how bad it went Israel wanted a King. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world.

This assumes that God did not also want a king for Israel.

Yet God, a few hundred years before Saul was anointed, and before David was chosen, God gave Moses laws on how... you guessed it... kings were supposed to behave.

Not patriarchs, not presidents, not dictators.

Kings.

God wanted a king for Israel.

Israel wanted a king before God was ready to give them one, and before they were ready for one.

Paul focused on the church in his counseling and reprimands and not the world.

And?

He still upheld the authority of government over the people.

Now being devoted to the president as King sweeps away any moral integrity.

I (personally) don't want a president.

I want a king.

As Isaiah wrote to his people Come out of Babylon.

Which has nothing to do with this topic.

 

[TrumpTrainCA]

I believe that my will is free to make decisions. Not to sin. No freedom to sin.

So you do not believe in free will. You do not believe that man has the freedom to reject or accept God? Well, that blows the answer I was going to give you about government.

I believe you are wrong. I have the choice to accept, or reject God. God did not create robot who would worship him. He want man to follow him out of Love, out of his own free will.

Anyway, as I said, my answer is no good now. Carry on

 

[Jacob]

So you do not believe in free will. You do not believe that man has the freedom to reject or accept God? Well, that blows the answer I was going to give you about government.

I believe you are wrong. I have the choice to accept, or reject God. God did not create robot who would worship him. He want man to follow him out of Love, out of his own free will.

Anyway, as I said, my answer is no good now. Carry on

I do not believe that I am a robot. I believe that I can accept or reject God, but that is kind of bold as I do not want to reject Him.

 

[Jacob]

I think the Bible clearly shows when the faithful get involved in worldly politics it soils them and gives God a bad name. We know how bad it went Israel wanted a King. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world. Paul focused on the church in his counseling and reprimands and not the world.

Now being devoted to the president as King sweeps away any moral integrity.

As Isaiah wrote to his people Come out of Babylon.

To choose to believe and do the right thing, or the right things, is noble.

 

[Jacob]

With the current political layout we have now, that is certainly true. But that is a result of Christians LEAVING the seats of power.

In other words, we shouldn't abandon government altogether. Rather, we should continue to advocate what is good and just and right, even in the face of a wicked government.



This assumes that God did not also want a king for Israel.

Yet God, a few hundred years before Saul was anointed, and before David was chosen, God gave Moses laws on how... you guessed it... kings were supposed to behave.

Not patriarchs, not presidents, not dictators.

Kings.

God wanted a king for Israel.

Israel wanted a king before God was ready to give them one, and before they were ready for one.



And?

He still upheld the authority of government over the people.



I (personally) don't want a president.

I want a king.



Which has nothing to do with this topic.

God wanted a King for Israel, and the people wanted a King.

In the United States of America we have a Constitution so a President and not a King.

 

[JudgeRightly]

God wanted a King for Israel, and the people wanted a King.

They wanted a king before God had planned to give them one.

In the United States of America we have a Constitution so a President and not a King.

A king and a constitution are not mutually exclusive.

I advocate for a constitutional monarchy.

 

[Jacob]

They wanted a king before God had planned to give them one.



A king and a constitution are not mutually exclusive.

I advocate for a constitutional monarchy.

God wanted a King for them in the Torah.

 

[Jacob]

God wanted a King for them in the Torah.

Deuteronomy 17:14-20 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

 

[exminister]

I don't see it as God wanted a King for Israel. He wanted to be the King of Israel. He just conceded they will make one anyway (like the proclivity is for one today) and gave some guidelines if they MUST have a human king.

Deu 17
14 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,” 15 be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses.

 

[Aimiel]

God also wants to be King of the United States of America, but in lieu of that: He's installed a President who's seeking Him and searching for Him with all of his heart. God pulled the wool over the eyes of the Democratic Party, thinking they had the election in the bag. He can do that sort of thing, being God. The man who is in the office was described, several years before he was elected as, "A trumpet for The Almighty." He will do two terms in office and God will get the glory.

 

[TrumpTrainCA]

I do not believe that I am a robot. I believe that I can accept or reject God, but that is kind of bold as I do not want to reject Him.

Oh, okay. Well in that case.......


Because God gave us free will we have to come to grips with the fact that we will always live in a pluralistic society, with believers, non-believers, and believers in false religions. Those people will all have a say in government. So, there is no way we can force specifically Christian moralities or ethics onto others.

What we can do is stay in the game, elect officials that have our values and will pass laws the reflect our values.

I think the Bible clearly shows when the faithful get involved in worldly politics it soils them and gives God a bad name.......

I don't buy that for a second.

 

[Jacob]

Oh, okay. Well in that case.......


Because God gave us free will we have to come to grips with the fact that we will always live in a pluralistic society, with believers, non-believers, and believers in false religions. Those people will all have a say in government. So, there is no way we can force specifically Christian moralities or ethics onto others.

What we can do is stay in the game, elect officials that have our values and will pass laws the reflect our values.

What does pluralistic mean?

What about running for office or being willing to be elected yourself rather than voting for people that have your values? Be involved yourself rather than vote others in?

If we don't force our values upon others might they come to believe them as well themselves? How do you witness to the truth? I say this because allowing sin free reign does not make sense. It doesn't make sense in ourselves. Maybe it makes sense in the sense of not resisting an evil person.

 

[exminister]

God wants no King. The Old Testament shows how bad an idea it is. This president does not seek God. He has said publicly he has no reason to ask forgiveness. He is as corrupt as they come. He only uses religion, which is what con men do.

Again Christians who tie themselves into worldly politics only soils the gospel. Jesus is King period. Why settle for the profane when you have the divine? Why do you think He said His kingdom is not of this world?

John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Why do you think Paul wrote this?

1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. 10 I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12 What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”


The church is making the same mistake over and over. They associate themselves with the world and not the next.


Isaiah 48:20
"Leave Babylon, flee from the Babylonians! Announce this with shouts of joy and proclaim it. Send it out to the ends of the earth; say, "The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob."

 

[exminister]

TTCA,

You might not care about God's name in the world but He does.

Ezekiel 20:21-22
But the children [Israel] rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws—although the man who obeys them will live by them and they desecarated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the desert. But I withheld my hand, and for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out.

 

[JudgeRightly]

God also wants to be King of the United States of America, but in lieu of that: He's installed a President who's seeking Him and searching for Him with all of his heart. God pulled the wool over the eyes of the Democratic Party, thinking they had the election in the bag. He can do that sort of thing, being God. The man who is in the office was described, several years before he was elected as, "A trumpet for The Almighty." He will do two terms in office and God will get the glory.

If you think Trump is seeking God in all he does, you've pulled wool over your own eyes.

 

[TrumpTrainCA]

What does pluralistic mean?

It means a society filled with many people of differing beliefs and religions and ethics/morals.

.....What about running for office or being willing to be elected yourself rather than voting for people that have your values? Be involved yourself rather than vote others in?.....

That's great. I am all for it.

......If we don't force our values upon others might they come to believe them as well themselves? How do you witness to the truth? I say this because allowing sin free reign does not make sense. It doesn't make sense in ourselves. Maybe it makes sense in the sense of not resisting an evil person.

I was speaking strictly in the context of government and the laws it can pass.

Witnessing to others is something everybody should do on a daily basis, and has nothing really to do with government.

But if you become a Senator or a President, you need to find a way to promote values in a non-sectarian way. For example, if you are against abortion, you need to make the case without using the Bible, because many folks don't recognize the Bible as the Word of God. Same for gay marriage, or whatever. You would need to make make your case appealing and convincing to everyone regardless of their beliefs.