@ Ben Masada

[intojoy]

The difference between our faith and every other belief system is the difference between "advice" and "news". Yeshua didn't just come to give advice. He came to bear our debt, to pay for the penalty of our sins (the wages of sin is death), so that we could be free to forgive one another as he forgave us. Its not advice that is the message of the bible, but it is news, good news. The news that God has intervened on our behalf, and has provided forgiveness for our sins.
We are beings that need unconditional all accepting love. Our problem is that none of us know how to give this kind of love because all of our love is conditional in some way and is self serving. But God who is the embodiment of love, and who does not need love, became a willing sacrifice and gave his life as a ransom for sin. Why? Because we needed love. And so that we could receive the kind of love we as beings so desperately needed - unconditional, accepting love and so that we could become the kind of people He created us to be.

It's not what we can do for God but what He has done for us. He entered "our world," He took on
"our humanity," He bore "our sins," He died "our death, "He was resurrected for "our life," He's coming again for "our glorification."
Paul in his letter to the Romans is urging us on the basis of all that he taught on, on the basis of all that has been done, he urges us to become living sacrifices:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:1, 2 KJV)
"therefore" meaning all Paul taught concerning grace and mercy, we have become thru Christ the objects of God's omnipotent, eternal love.

If we have not understood all that the mercies of God has done, if we have not understood doctrinally and theologically deep enough, all that Messiah has accomplished for us, then we have become useless to him. God is calling us to live our lives as living sacrifices unto him. Our problem is, we are so prideful that we are not willing to give up anything for others. When a sacrifice was laid upon the altar there was a great deal of suffering involved, the animal experienced pain and suffering. What are we willing to give up? What are we willing to place upon the altar? So that we can become a blessing to others, and become servants of the Most High God?

 

[JonahofAkron]

The difference between our faith and every other belief system is the difference between "advice" and "news". Yeshua didn't just come to give advice. He came to bear our debt, to pay for the penalty of our sins (the wages of sin is death), so that we could be free to forgive one another as he forgave us. Its not advice that is the message of the bible, but it is news, good news. The news that God has intervened on our behalf, and has provided forgiveness for our sins.
We are beings that need unconditional all accepting love. Our problem is that none of us know how to give this kind of love because all of our love is conditional in some way and is self serving. But God who is the embodiment of love, and who does not need love, became a willing sacrifice and gave his life as a ransom for sin. Why? Because we needed love. And so that we could receive the kind of love we as beings so desperately needed - unconditional, accepting love and so that we could become the kind of people He created us to be.

It's not what we can do for God but what He has done for us. He entered "our world," He took on
"our humanity," He bore "our sins," He died "our death, "He was resurrected for "our life," He's coming again for "our glorification."
Paul in his letter to the Romans is urging us on the basis of all that he taught on, on the basis of all that has been done, he urges us to become living sacrifices:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:1, 2 KJV)
"therefore" meaning all Paul taught concerning grace and mercy, we have become thru Christ the objects of God's omnipotent, eternal love.

If we have not understood all that the mercies of God has done, if we have not understood doctrinally and theologically deep enough, all that Messiah has accomplished for us, then we have become useless to him. God is calling us to live our lives as living sacrifices unto him. Our problem is, we are so prideful that we are not willing to give up anything for others. When a sacrifice was laid upon the altar there was a great deal of suffering involved, the animal experienced pain and suffering. What are we willing to give up? What are we willing to place upon the altar? So that we can become a blessing to others, and become servants of the Most High God?

Amen

 

[intojoy]

If the Old Testament only spoke of the Messiah in terms of His suffering, it would hardly give us enough to go on, but there is much more to the Old Testament picture of the Messiah than that which is found in Isaiah 53. In other passages, there is often less conflict, if any at all, than the conflict over Isaiah 53. These other passages, taken along with Isaiah 53, go a long way to show how the Messiah was to be a thoroughly unique Person.

Here they are Ben

 

[intojoy]

Genesis 3:15

Following the account of the Creation, the Old Testament continues with the story of Adam and Eve. In the guise of a serpent, Satan deceives Eve and causes her to break the one commandment of God. Adam follows suit. The result is that sin enters the human family and the human experience. Man now stands under the righteous judgment of God. Nevertheless, at the time of the Fall, God provides for future redemption. As He addresses Satan, God says in

Genesis 3:15: I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed: he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. The key note of this verse is the statement: seed of the woman.

In and of itself, this statement may not seem unusual, but in the context of biblical teaching, it is most unusual. Throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, lineage was never reckoned after the woman, but only after the man. In all the genealogies we have in the biblical record, women are virtually ignored because they are unimportant in determining genealogy. Yet the future Person who would crush Satan's head, while only suffering a slight wound Himself, would not be reckoned after a man, but after a woman. In the biblical pattern, this is highly unusual. In spite of the normal biblical pattern, we have a clear statement that the future Redeemer comes from the “seed of the woman.” His birth will take into account His mother only. For a reason that is not explained here, the father will not be taken into account at all. Yet this goes totally contrary to the whole biblical view regarding genealogies. That this verse was taken to be messianic is clear from the “Targums of Jonathan” and the “Jerusalem Targums.” Furthermore, the Talmudic expression, “Heels of the Messiah,” seems to have been taken from this verse. But Genesis itself does not explain how or why this Redeemer can be labeled “seed of the woman” when it goes contrary to the biblical pattern.

 

[intojoy]

Isaiah 7:14

Centuries later, Israel had a great prophet in the person of Isaiah. It was left to this prophet to explain the meaning and reason why the Messiah would be reckoned only after the seed of the woman. Isaiah writes in Isaiah 7:14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. The very fact that the birth of the Person spoken of in this passage is described as a sign points to some unusual circumstance regarding the birth. In other words, the birth could not be normal, for that would not fulfill the requirement of the word sign. It had to be unusual in some way, perhaps miraculous or, at least, attention-getting.

The very existence of the Jewish people is derived from a sign of a birth. The Scriptures make it clear that both Abraham and Sarah were beyond the point of being able to bear children; Abraham was ninety-nine years old, and Sarah, eighty-nine. She had, of course, already undergone menopause when, in Genesis 18, God promised that Sarah would have a son within one year! This would be the sign that God will keep his covenant with Abraham and will make a great nation from him. A year later, this sign took place with the birth of Isaac, through whom the Jewish people came. It was the sign needed to authenticate the covenant. This was a miraculous birth.

The birth of the son in Isaiah 7:14 was also to be a sign, to be unusual in some way. But this time, the unusual nature of the birth was not going to be due to the great age of the mother. It would be a sign by virtue of the fact that this son would be born of a virgin.

Right at this point, another conflict often ensues. Rabbi's today claim that the Hebrew word almah does not mean “virgin,” but “young woman.” But what they fail to explain is how this would be used as a sign. A young woman giving birth to a baby is hardly unusual, in fact, it happens all the time!

 

[intojoy]

In other passages where this word is used, almah clearly means “virgin.” It is used in six other places in the Old Testament outside of Isaiah 7:14. In all six other places, no one argues that the word means a “virgin.” If it means a “virgin” in those six other passages, there is no way it could mean a “non-virgin” in Isaiah 7:14. About 250 B.C., seventy Jewish rabbis translated the Greek version of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint. These seventy rabbis all made almah to read parthenos, which is the simple Greek word for “virgin.” Even if almah is allowed to mean “young woman,” it still must be admitted that the word can refer to a “virginal young woman.” It must not be ignored that this birth was to be a sign, an unusual birth. This is best seen if taken to mean a “virgin birth.” This, then, is the explanation of the mystery of Genesis 3:15. The Messiah would be reckoned after the seed of a woman because He would not have a human father. Because of a Virgin Birth, His lineage could be traced only through His mother and not His father. Thus, Isaiah 7:14 clarifies the meaning of Genesis 3:15: the Messiah will enter the world by means of a Virgin Birth.

 

[intojoy]

Micah 5:2

Not only was the means of the Messiah's birth prophesied, but also the place of His birth was prophesied. This was done by the Prophet Micah, a contemporary of Isaiah. In chapter 5 of his book, we read in verse 2: But you, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which are little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting. Concerning this verse, there is far less disagreement among Orthodox rabbis, since they generally take this to mean that the Messiah will originate from Bethlehem. This is the view taken by “The Soncino Books of the Bible,” which is the Orthodox Jewish commentary on the Old Testament and which takes as its source some earlier Jewish commentaries.

 

[intojoy]

Another point that is uncontested is that the Messiah would be a descendant of King David. From this comes the rabbinical ascription of the title, “Messiah, the Son of David.” Of the numerous passages that might be cited, we will limit ourselves to the following two, both from Isaiah. The first passage is Isaiah 11:1: And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.

And the second passage is Isaiah 11:10: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that stands for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Jesse was the father of David, thus, these passages show that the Messiah will come from the House of David. To this, all Orthodox Judaism agrees. Other passages regarding this same point will be cited later in a different context.

 

[intojoy]

The above was taken from Ariel.org
My dear friend Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum

 

[intojoy]

Isaiah 53

That the Messiah will suffer and die was something upon which all early rabbis agreed. They referred to the Suffering Messiah as “Messiah, the Son of Joseph,” making Him distinct from Messiah, the Son of David. The central passage, which supports this view, is Isaiah 53.

 

[intojoy]

Psalm 22

This is another passage dealing with the suffering of the Messiah. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry in the daytime, but you answer not; And in the night season, and am not silent. But you are holy, O you that inhabit the praises of Israel. Our fathers trusted in you: They trusted, and you did deliver them. They cried unto you, and were delivered: They trusted in you, and were not put to shame. But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, Commit yourself unto Jehovah; Let him deliver him: Let him rescue him, seeing he delights in him. But you are he that took me out of the womb; You did make me trust when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon you from the womb; You are my God since my mother bare me. Be not far from me; For trouble is near; For there is none to help. Many bulls have compassed me; Strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gape upon me with their mouth. As a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water And all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And you have brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: A company of evil-doers have inclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. I may count all my bones; They look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, And upon my vesture do they cast lots. But be not you far off, O Jehovah: O you my succor, haste you to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword, My darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth; Yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen you have answered me.

To summarize this passage, we find that the Messiah is forsaken by God; is ridiculed and tormented by the people; and His clothes are gambled away by His tormentors. He suffers such agony that all His bones come out of joint; His heart breaks with a mixture of blood and water; and His hands and feet are pierced. In many ways, this Psalm is very similar to Isaiah 53, providing even more detail as to the type of suffering and agony that the Messiah must undergo. The rabbis in the Yalkut also understood this passage to refer to Messiah, the Son of Joseph.

 

[intojoy]

In all the passages discussed so far, the Messiah was portrayed as a man, but as a man of sorrows; He was to suffer and die. The earlier rabbis all recognized that these passages speak of the Messiah and called Him Messiah, the Son of Joseph. For as Joseph the Patriarch suffered at the hands of his brethren, the Messiah would also suffer.

But other Old Testament passages speak of another kind of Messiah: not a sufferer, but a conqueror; not a dying Messiah, but a reigning One. This One was called “Messiah, the Son of David” by the rabbis. Most of what is said about the Messiah in Moses and the Prophets revolves around the Messiah's coming to bring peace and to establish the Messianic Kingdom in Israel.

There are far too many such passages to even begin to list them here, but two such passages will be quoted in full. It should be noted how differently this Messiah is portrayed in comparison with all the previous passages thus far discussed. It is little wonder that the early rabbis were confused and so devised the Theory of the Two Messiahs, with each Messiah coming only once.

 

[intojoy]

Isaiah 11:1-10

And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah. And his delight shall be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears; but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his waist, and faithfulness the girdle of his loins. And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that stands for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious.

Both the ancient and modern rabbis agree that this passage speaks of the Messiah and the Messianic Age. But unlike the previous passages, there is no picture of a dying Messiah being rebuked and despised by His people. The picture we get here is of a reigning Messiah who brings peace and prosperity to the entire world; peace extends down to the animal kingdom; the wicked are removed in judgment; and differences between the nations are settled by the Messiah's authoritative word. The knowledge of the God of Israel spreads until it covers the entire world. Now that the reigning Messiah has brought peace and prosperity to it, the whole world has an intimate knowledge of the God who created it.

 

[intojoy]

Psalm 72:1-19

This is a second passage, which gives the same picture.

Give the king your judgments, O God, And your righteousness unto the king's son. He will judge your people with righteousness, And your poor with justice. The mountains shall bring peace to the people, And the hills, in righteousness. He will judge the poor of the people He will save the children of the needy, And will break in pieces the oppressor. They shall fear you while the sun endures, And so long as the moon, throughout all generations. He will come down like rain upon the mown grass, As showers that water the earth. In his days shall the righteous flourish, And abundance of peace, till the moon be no more. He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, And from the River unto the ends of the earth. They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; And his enemies shall lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall render tribute: The kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. Yea, all kings shall fall down before him; All nations shall serve him. For he will deliver the needy when he crieth, And the poor, that has no helper. He will have pity on the poor and needy, And the souls of the needy he will save. He will redeem their soul from oppression and violence; And precious will their blood be in his sight: And they shall live; and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: And men shall pray for him continually; They shall bless him all the day long. There shall be abundance of grain in the earth upon the top of the mountains; The fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: And they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth. His name shall endure for ever; His name shall be continued as long as the sun: And men shall be blessed in him; All nations shall call him happy. Blessed be Jehovah God, the God of Israel, Who only does wondrous things: And blessed be his glorious name for ever; And let the whole earth be filled with his glory. Amen, and Amen.

This Psalm is applied as speaking of the righteous reign of the Messiah in the Talmud. The Targums make the first verse to read as follows: “Give the sentence of your judgment to the King Messiah, and your justice to the son of David the King.” The Midrash on the Psalms follows suit and connects this Psalm with Isaiah 11:1, which was quoted previously. Furthermore, among the many different names given to the Messiah by the rabbis of the Talmud, the name Yinnon was taken from the Hebrew rendering of verse 17 in this very Psalm.

So this passage also presents a different view of the Messiah than the others discussed earlier in this study. This, then, is a twofold picture presenting a major problem to anyone trying to formulate what the Old Testament has to say about the Messiah.

 

[intojoy]

More later

 

[intojoy]

The Messiah of the Old Testament and Jewish evangelism

 

[intojoy]

Benskeez

 

[chair]

The difference between our faith and every other belief system is the difference between "advice" and "news". Yeshua didn't just come to give advice. He came to bear our debt, to pay for the penalty of our sins (the wages of sin is death), so that we could be free to forgive one another as he forgave us. ...

This "debt" only exists in Christian mythology. You invent a problem, then claim that "only we have the solution".

 

[intojoy]

This "debt" only exists in Christian mythology. You invent a problem, then claim that "only we have the solution".

Cher, you can believe that if you wanna no sweat off my back girl

 

[daqq]

Psalm 22

This is another passage dealing with the suffering of the Messiah. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry in the daytime, but you answer not; And in the night season, and am not silent. But you are holy, O you that inhabit the praises of Israel. Our fathers trusted in you: They trusted, and you did deliver them. They cried unto you, and were delivered: They trusted in you, and were not put to shame. But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, Commit yourself unto Jehovah; Let him deliver him: Let him rescue him, seeing he delights in him. But you are he that took me out of the womb; You did make me trust when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon you from the womb; You are my God since my mother bare me. Be not far from me; For trouble is near; For there is none to help. Many bulls have compassed me; Strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gape upon me with their mouth. As a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water And all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And you have brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: A company of evil-doers have inclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. I may count all my bones; They look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, And upon my vesture do they cast lots. But be not you far off, O Jehovah: O you my succor, haste you to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword, My darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth; Yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen you have answered me.

To summarize this passage, we find that the Messiah is forsaken by God; is ridiculed and tormented by the people; and His clothes are gambled away by His tormentors. He suffers such agony that all His bones come out of joint; His heart breaks with a mixture of blood and water; and His hands and feet are pierced. In many ways, this Psalm is very similar to Isaiah 53, providing even more detail as to the type of suffering and agony that the Messiah must undergo. The rabbis in the Yalkut also understood this passage to refer to Messiah, the Son of Joseph.

Perhaps if you had read just a little further you would have seen that Messiah was not forsaken by the Father, (if that is indeed Who you mean when you write "forsaken by God").

Psalm 22:22-24
22. I will declare Thy Name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise Thee.
23. You that fear YHWH, praise Him; all you of the seed of Jacob, glorify Him; and fear Him, all you of the seed of Israel.
24. For He hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath He hid His face from him; but when he cried unto Him, He heard!

The Father never turned His face away from the Son, not even for a split second: hope that does not throw a wrench in your atonement theory gears.