BEL: Dating while waiting? 08-11-2003
- Thread starter Jefferson
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lever vs. knife
lever vs. knife
Jefferson, let me know if you have a thought about the very last analogy of the show, regarding the voting booth lever vs. a knife. -Bob
lever vs. knife
Jefferson, let me know if you have a thought about the very last analogy of the show, regarding the voting booth lever vs. a knife. -Bob
wholearmor
Member
I didn't catch the whole show tonight. Did y'all talk about the book I Kissed Dating Goodbye by Joshua Harris or wouldn't his book have been relative to the discussion?
wholearmor
Member
Maybe you should get out more! :chuckle:
Re: lever vs. knife
Re: lever vs. knife
Pertinent excerpt: "The August 18 issue of The New Republic features an article by Sacha Zimmerman that warns its readers of "The Real Threat to Roe v. Wade."
That threat? Ectogenesis.
Just in case this term is not yet a part of your conversation over breakfast, be informed that ectogenesis "is the process by which a fetus gestates in an environment external to the mother." [see
magazine's website]
The article details rapid advances in the development of artificial
wombs and artificial amniotic fluids that could mean that an embryo could develop all the way to maturity in this artificial environment. Once this happens, viability begins with conception--and, as Zimmerman notes: "If and when that happens, the legal and philosophical premises underpinning Roe could be completely dismantled."
Re: lever vs. knife
Although that analogy really personalized the issue, I think all anti-abortion arguments may soon become moot because of http://www.lifenews.com/oped9.html
Pertinent excerpt: "The August 18 issue of The New Republic features an article by Sacha Zimmerman that warns its readers of "The Real Threat to Roe v. Wade."
That threat? Ectogenesis.
Just in case this term is not yet a part of your conversation over breakfast, be informed that ectogenesis "is the process by which a fetus gestates in an environment external to the mother." [see
magazine's website]
The article details rapid advances in the development of artificial
wombs and artificial amniotic fluids that could mean that an embryo could develop all the way to maturity in this artificial environment. Once this happens, viability begins with conception--and, as Zimmerman notes: "If and when that happens, the legal and philosophical premises underpinning Roe could be completely dismantled."
philosophizer
New member
Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Re: Re: lever vs. knife
I don't see how that would make the argument any different than it is now. If pro-abortionists don't see that fact now, why would they see it after this?
Re: Re: Re: lever vs. knife
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"Ectogenesis will be less physically painful than abortion for ME."
"Ectogenesis will be less guilt producing than abortion for ME."
The selfish pro-aborts who only think "me, me, me" will choose ectognesis over abortion.
Re: Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Because of the selfish attitudes of those who get abortions. Pregnant women who want to get rid of their unborn babies will look at the options between abortion and ectogenesis and think to themselves:
"Ectogenesis will be less physically painful than abortion for ME."
"Ectogenesis will be less guilt producing than abortion for ME."
The selfish pro-aborts who only think "me, me, me" will choose ectognesis over abortion.
philosophizer
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Re: Re: Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Are you saying that Ectogenesis is another option available for mothers instead of abortion? How does that fix the problem of unwanted pregnancies. I don't think that most abortions occur because the mothers are afraid of pregnancy and childbirth pains. I think that most abortions occur simply because the mothers don't want kids. How is Ectogenesis going to remedy that?
Re: Re: Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Are you saying that Ectogenesis is another option available for mothers instead of abortion? How does that fix the problem of unwanted pregnancies. I don't think that most abortions occur because the mothers are afraid of pregnancy and childbirth pains. I think that most abortions occur simply because the mothers don't want kids. How is Ectogenesis going to remedy that?
I can see an area where ectogenesis could be a blessing. Ectopic pregnancy.
In an ectopic pregnancy the fertilized human egg implants in an area other than the womb, usually the fallopian tubes. As the baby grows, the fallopian tube ruptures, and can cause death to the mother if the baby is not immediately removed. The baby dies as a result of the surgery to save the mother's life. Without the surgery, both would die.
Perhaps in the future, these children can be saved as well as the mother. This would be a wonderful thing. Technology isn't a bad thing or a good thing. It's the wisdom or lack thereof of the human participants that determines the outcome of it's use.
In an ectopic pregnancy the fertilized human egg implants in an area other than the womb, usually the fallopian tubes. As the baby grows, the fallopian tube ruptures, and can cause death to the mother if the baby is not immediately removed. The baby dies as a result of the surgery to save the mother's life. Without the surgery, both would die.
Perhaps in the future, these children can be saved as well as the mother. This would be a wonderful thing. Technology isn't a bad thing or a good thing. It's the wisdom or lack thereof of the human participants that determines the outcome of it's use.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Here is one potential snag though. Currently, teenage girls can get an abortion without their parents being notified. I'll bet the abortion industry will fight tooth and nail to make absolutely sure that parents MUST be notified if their teenage daughters choose to use the ectogenesis route. That way more of them will decide for abortions.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Because ectogenesis will allow the baby to be adopted without the mother having to go through 9 months of pregnancy and a painful birth.
Here is one potential snag though. Currently, teenage girls can get an abortion without their parents being notified. I'll bet the abortion industry will fight tooth and nail to make absolutely sure that parents MUST be notified if their teenage daughters choose to use the ectogenesis route. That way more of them will decide for abortions.
Dating is practicing meeting someone only to break up with them; it's learning to trade partners.
G-d showed us the pattern from the beginning.
G-d creates Adam, breathes life into him; and places Him in the garden, On Shabbat in the torah; He gives Him a job to do, name the animals. (interesting enough this is what little children do when fist learning how to speak; they want the names/nouns of things; they latter work into adjutives (descriptions of nouns); then verbs and adverbs.
It is here that Adam while Adam is doing the mission G-d gave Him that having an Eve becomes necessary. G-d does His thing and brings Adam a wife. You are to be busing developing yourselves; and finding out what your mission is; then perhaps He'll bring you a wife. You do not go looking. She is somewhere out there being developed especially for you to help you in the mission. He will bring you someone. Even the patriarch wives were brought to them; they met their wifes by the wells; where the water was gathered.
They together had a mission to have children. For their enjoyment? So they could say they had achieved the American dream? 1 7/8 child per family? No - to raise them up in the Admonition of the LORD; to infuse Holy people into the world; to continue; and of course children are enjoyable; also notice sex is not the purpose of marriage. The mission is.
Young men; prepare yourselves well to be as He designed you and for His purpose; this will fulfill you with or without a wife. Young ladies; do introduce him to your father, uncle, brothers family; let them guide you they know you best AND the know the nature of a young man even more. Don't go anywhere with them alone; escorts are best; and not your loose girl friends. It's best to interact with family or your community of faith. Pay attention to how he speaks of his parents and others in authority over him. These days he should apply like a job application. Where he's lived (stability?); where he's worked (stability and ability); a police report, and last but not least a credit report. By the way guys you can ask her the same.
If you getting serious; look at each other's families very closely; you just think when you marry you make your own life; not so the families are wedded togther. If any mother/father is dominerring; your spouse to be might also be or the reverse cowardly - don't do it. Marry into a relatively healthy familiy. If they have a good history of long marriages, death to us part, that's a good blessing on you. Marrying divoced people. Do they speak of the ex? If yes and very favorable; watch out!!! if unfavorable - run!! if merely respectfully; this can be good. Read the divorce decree and any custody papers. Are they living up to their part? grumbling or smoothly? If no - run. If yes, maybe ok. Is the ex living up to their part? If no - run. And guess what; you marry the ex and their family as well if there are children. The divorce rate for blendeds is very very high; it takes experts in human dynamics; execellant planing and organizing.
Remember Abraham and Sarah? Hagar and Ismael? That's the closest we get to a bibical blended family. How did that work out by the way? Wars and rumors of wars; I think.
And by the way you often here people say of the marriage certificate "it's just a piece of paper" We'll they r rite! The original wedding covenants were written down. Mutual benefit and mutual obligation. He must provide at least 3 things,adequate dwelling place (not mansion); food (healthy); and clothing; other things could be added in as agreed; if she was to stay home and raise children; it was stated up front (no suprises ladies); marital rights were to the women (stay on her cycle; don't make up your own men is unnatural);
if she would be allowed to work what when how, how are her earnings to be spent; of course prenuptuals where stated here; how they would divide wealth already accumulated before marriage; what ever you want to agree to; and you can renew it every so often and agree to amend. Since these agreements were in writting only then did you have a legal basis for ending marriage; no such things as "he doesn't love me, I don't love her, we're incompatable. Male and female are incompatalbe;what you haven't noiced yet? Of course the males held each other to account; if there was violation you brought before elders for mediation. The Jews have it right folks; not only a bride price (to demonstrate to pappa that the young man could care for his daughter) ; but sometimes there was even a divorce deposit. Yup; pay up front $10,000. Anytime a man thought of divorce he could see it in financial terms right away. I suppose after 50 years the jubilee year; the deposit could be returned for special honey moon. No?
At any rate take your time! There is much maturing to do as individuals before you can safely enter in to marriage. Two problem children in marriage reek havoc.
Blended families. This is misnomer. It's not blended/smooth at all.
G-d showed us the pattern from the beginning.
G-d creates Adam, breathes life into him; and places Him in the garden, On Shabbat in the torah; He gives Him a job to do, name the animals. (interesting enough this is what little children do when fist learning how to speak; they want the names/nouns of things; they latter work into adjutives (descriptions of nouns); then verbs and adverbs.
It is here that Adam while Adam is doing the mission G-d gave Him that having an Eve becomes necessary. G-d does His thing and brings Adam a wife. You are to be busing developing yourselves; and finding out what your mission is; then perhaps He'll bring you a wife. You do not go looking. She is somewhere out there being developed especially for you to help you in the mission. He will bring you someone. Even the patriarch wives were brought to them; they met their wifes by the wells; where the water was gathered.
They together had a mission to have children. For their enjoyment? So they could say they had achieved the American dream? 1 7/8 child per family? No - to raise them up in the Admonition of the LORD; to infuse Holy people into the world; to continue; and of course children are enjoyable; also notice sex is not the purpose of marriage. The mission is.
Young men; prepare yourselves well to be as He designed you and for His purpose; this will fulfill you with or without a wife. Young ladies; do introduce him to your father, uncle, brothers family; let them guide you they know you best AND the know the nature of a young man even more. Don't go anywhere with them alone; escorts are best; and not your loose girl friends. It's best to interact with family or your community of faith. Pay attention to how he speaks of his parents and others in authority over him. These days he should apply like a job application. Where he's lived (stability?); where he's worked (stability and ability); a police report, and last but not least a credit report. By the way guys you can ask her the same.
If you getting serious; look at each other's families very closely; you just think when you marry you make your own life; not so the families are wedded togther. If any mother/father is dominerring; your spouse to be might also be or the reverse cowardly - don't do it. Marry into a relatively healthy familiy. If they have a good history of long marriages, death to us part, that's a good blessing on you. Marrying divoced people. Do they speak of the ex? If yes and very favorable; watch out!!! if unfavorable - run!! if merely respectfully; this can be good. Read the divorce decree and any custody papers. Are they living up to their part? grumbling or smoothly? If no - run. If yes, maybe ok. Is the ex living up to their part? If no - run. And guess what; you marry the ex and their family as well if there are children. The divorce rate for blendeds is very very high; it takes experts in human dynamics; execellant planing and organizing.
Remember Abraham and Sarah? Hagar and Ismael? That's the closest we get to a bibical blended family. How did that work out by the way? Wars and rumors of wars; I think.
And by the way you often here people say of the marriage certificate "it's just a piece of paper" We'll they r rite! The original wedding covenants were written down. Mutual benefit and mutual obligation. He must provide at least 3 things,adequate dwelling place (not mansion); food (healthy); and clothing; other things could be added in as agreed; if she was to stay home and raise children; it was stated up front (no suprises ladies); marital rights were to the women (stay on her cycle; don't make up your own men is unnatural);
if she would be allowed to work what when how, how are her earnings to be spent; of course prenuptuals where stated here; how they would divide wealth already accumulated before marriage; what ever you want to agree to; and you can renew it every so often and agree to amend. Since these agreements were in writting only then did you have a legal basis for ending marriage; no such things as "he doesn't love me, I don't love her, we're incompatable. Male and female are incompatalbe;what you haven't noiced yet? Of course the males held each other to account; if there was violation you brought before elders for mediation. The Jews have it right folks; not only a bride price (to demonstrate to pappa that the young man could care for his daughter) ; but sometimes there was even a divorce deposit. Yup; pay up front $10,000. Anytime a man thought of divorce he could see it in financial terms right away. I suppose after 50 years the jubilee year; the deposit could be returned for special honey moon. No?
At any rate take your time! There is much maturing to do as individuals before you can safely enter in to marriage. Two problem children in marriage reek havoc.
Blended families. This is misnomer. It's not blended/smooth at all.
Also marry someone a little like you; this opposite personalities is also not so good. You get too opposite and you spend all your time resovling conflict. If you like organization don't marry the disorganized; unless they take a class and are willing to change a little. What you see on the outside lives in the inside, confusion on the outside; confusion on the inside. Females be careful that the kind, gentleness you see is not pushover. He should be firm in his convictions and kind and gentle in carrying them out. Marry someone in close body style, in close social structures, in close financialness. Stay away from gossisps, slanders (people who call people names); don't marry anyone if they ever lied to you or anyone else. Honesty is of the utmost. I don't mean telling everyone how you really feel about their new hair style; that's trival.
Another thing if you should marry a divorced person you must consider how long they were married. If they didn't want divorce; then divorce is like the death of a spouse and the greif is great and there's no funeral; you friends don't come and mourn with you. Some say after 3 years; I think a better rule of thumb is they must have been single for at least 1/2 the number of year married. Divorce is devastating to both people ( the one who wants divorce is fool to think they will loose nothing both always loose friends, family, wealth; self respect). Much healing time is needed. If there are children they will never be the same; yes the Lord heals and restores but such a waiste of time being in the hospital. When divorced children's parent re marries; there is new trauma; they always have the dream their folks get back together and re marriage crashes the dream; it's the end. Dreams die hard. If you marry a divorced person too soon; they get you confused with ex; is no fun at all; and they want to live out their past marriage through you. It can take them several years of your new marriage to get over it.
Just being "Christian" doesn't mean equally yoked. There are tens of thousands of different Christians; be sure you have the same doctrines. It's best to attend men's church where their men folk are; and wives are to go with husband. You should each have good same sex friends; male and female interests are different; and you both need a confidant. You should have a well seasoned married person to encourage you.
College isn't everything; if you have learned to do mulitple skills; people would pay you for; this is good. Cooking, cleaning, car repair, roofing; gardening. If the economy continues to sink; the most modern things will go first. Be thrifty; it's His wealth; not yours.
At age 50 the priests left the temple service and went out amoungst the people.
Ms. B
Another thing if you should marry a divorced person you must consider how long they were married. If they didn't want divorce; then divorce is like the death of a spouse and the greif is great and there's no funeral; you friends don't come and mourn with you. Some say after 3 years; I think a better rule of thumb is they must have been single for at least 1/2 the number of year married. Divorce is devastating to both people ( the one who wants divorce is fool to think they will loose nothing both always loose friends, family, wealth; self respect). Much healing time is needed. If there are children they will never be the same; yes the Lord heals and restores but such a waiste of time being in the hospital. When divorced children's parent re marries; there is new trauma; they always have the dream their folks get back together and re marriage crashes the dream; it's the end. Dreams die hard. If you marry a divorced person too soon; they get you confused with ex; is no fun at all; and they want to live out their past marriage through you. It can take them several years of your new marriage to get over it.
Just being "Christian" doesn't mean equally yoked. There are tens of thousands of different Christians; be sure you have the same doctrines. It's best to attend men's church where their men folk are; and wives are to go with husband. You should each have good same sex friends; male and female interests are different; and you both need a confidant. You should have a well seasoned married person to encourage you.
College isn't everything; if you have learned to do mulitple skills; people would pay you for; this is good. Cooking, cleaning, car repair, roofing; gardening. If the economy continues to sink; the most modern things will go first. Be thrifty; it's His wealth; not yours.
At age 50 the priests left the temple service and went out amoungst the people.
Ms. B
philosophizer
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Okay, gotcha. But I can't help but wonder who will be in charge of these ectogenesis facilities. But like your article said, this will raise a "host of moral and ethical issues."
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: lever vs. knife
Okay, gotcha. But I can't help but wonder who will be in charge of these ectogenesis facilities. But like your article said, this will raise a "host of moral and ethical issues."
philosophizer
New member
Is God's name "God"?
Flipper
New member
Ectogenesis, eh? It does seem like a more humane approach. I haven't actually read the article yet, so I may be way off in my following comments.
First, a good proportion of those who go in for abortions aren't high on the socio-economic scale, but abortion is an affordable procedure. I'm interested to know who Jefferson thinks should pick up the tab for what sounds like it will be a very expensive process. Presumably, not the tax payers.
I can see a case to be made where childless couples looking for babies to adopt might pick up the tab, but I doubt it will be affordable to many. We are talking about 9 months worth of presumably specialist care, after all. Will many insurance companies be willing to amortize that? Will there be enough of these couples to meet the demand?
Technology that pushes back foetal viability is not really central to the abortion issue. After all, if it became possible to clone whole humans from cheek cells that wouldn't mean we would need to reconsider cheek cells in a different light. Any fertilized egg is potentially viable now, but it doesn't change the current status of abortion.
Nevertheless, anything that might lower the abortion rate is to be commended.
First, a good proportion of those who go in for abortions aren't high on the socio-economic scale, but abortion is an affordable procedure. I'm interested to know who Jefferson thinks should pick up the tab for what sounds like it will be a very expensive process. Presumably, not the tax payers.
I can see a case to be made where childless couples looking for babies to adopt might pick up the tab, but I doubt it will be affordable to many. We are talking about 9 months worth of presumably specialist care, after all. Will many insurance companies be willing to amortize that? Will there be enough of these couples to meet the demand?
Technology that pushes back foetal viability is not really central to the abortion issue. After all, if it became possible to clone whole humans from cheek cells that wouldn't mean we would need to reconsider cheek cells in a different light. Any fertilized egg is potentially viable now, but it doesn't change the current status of abortion.
Nevertheless, anything that might lower the abortion rate is to be commended.
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