musterion
Well-known member
This thread has nothing for anyone who believes their preferred version of water baptism is vital to their justification by God. You're lost and I'm not talking to you or about you here.
This thread is for those who claim to believe in salvation by grace alone in faith alone in Christ alone without works, but still believe one must be water baptized for whatever reasons your church or denomination requires. So one more time...if you believe people MUST get wet or they won't get saved, there's nothing for you here. This isn't about you. Don't bother posting.
For the rest of you: when you say (here I condense and paraphrase what I've heard a hundred times on TOL and elsewhere), "Believers are not saved by any works BUT they must submit to water baptism in order to be fully obedient to God," what you really mean is, to NOT submit to water baptism is disobedience.
Now let's be adults and call "disobedience" what you really mean in this case. You believe that to neglect or refuse water baptism is a sin against God. Do not deny it. It is a fact. You know it, we know it. So let's stop pretending otherwise.
Here's your problem. One cannot be forgiven all sin through faith in Christ (Col 2:13) without any works of the flesh (Eph 2:9; Titus 3:5) and yet be sinning against God for not submitting to a man-centered work of the flesh; one, in fact, that arose right out of the Law.
To insist that believers sin by not submitting to this or that water rite is itself sin, for it is Galatianism. It is men being required by other men to DO something in addition to simply trusting Christ. That is exactly what you have implied every time you tell someone they MUST get wet to not sin against God (and that IS what you're telling them).
Do you not realize that you're disregarding the fact that Christ bore ALL our burdens and made ALL necessary satisfaction for us at the Cross? You say you believe that...does it sound like you believe that whenever you preach it's a sin against God not to be water baptized by you? You preaching any form of water ritual - even for mere "obedience" - adds a self-righteous burden, a work of the flesh to the terms of the Gospel, making yours a false, grace-denying gospel.
Further, many of you "obedience baptizers" have said we MADs are sinning when we oppose water rites as not for today. You are dead wrong. It is we who are truly defending what you only say you believe: that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, WITHOUT WORKS of any kind to be, stay or prove one is saved.
This thread is for those who claim to believe in salvation by grace alone in faith alone in Christ alone without works, but still believe one must be water baptized for whatever reasons your church or denomination requires. So one more time...if you believe people MUST get wet or they won't get saved, there's nothing for you here. This isn't about you. Don't bother posting.
For the rest of you: when you say (here I condense and paraphrase what I've heard a hundred times on TOL and elsewhere), "Believers are not saved by any works BUT they must submit to water baptism in order to be fully obedient to God," what you really mean is, to NOT submit to water baptism is disobedience.
Now let's be adults and call "disobedience" what you really mean in this case. You believe that to neglect or refuse water baptism is a sin against God. Do not deny it. It is a fact. You know it, we know it. So let's stop pretending otherwise.
Here's your problem. One cannot be forgiven all sin through faith in Christ (Col 2:13) without any works of the flesh (Eph 2:9; Titus 3:5) and yet be sinning against God for not submitting to a man-centered work of the flesh; one, in fact, that arose right out of the Law.
To insist that believers sin by not submitting to this or that water rite is itself sin, for it is Galatianism. It is men being required by other men to DO something in addition to simply trusting Christ. That is exactly what you have implied every time you tell someone they MUST get wet to not sin against God (and that IS what you're telling them).
Do you not realize that you're disregarding the fact that Christ bore ALL our burdens and made ALL necessary satisfaction for us at the Cross? You say you believe that...does it sound like you believe that whenever you preach it's a sin against God not to be water baptized by you? You preaching any form of water ritual - even for mere "obedience" - adds a self-righteous burden, a work of the flesh to the terms of the Gospel, making yours a false, grace-denying gospel.
Further, many of you "obedience baptizers" have said we MADs are sinning when we oppose water rites as not for today. You are dead wrong. It is we who are truly defending what you only say you believe: that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, WITHOUT WORKS of any kind to be, stay or prove one is saved.
