ECT Acts 17:31 vs TULIP

musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Calvinism's TULIP teaches:

Total depravity, meaning man is so literally dead that he cannot even hear God (much less understand or obey Him) unless God does something about it. That leads to,

Unconditional Election, where God chose some to save (the elect) and some to "pass over" (everyone else...reprobates). That in turn leads to,

Limited Atonement -- if God chose only a relative few to save, then the blood of Christ was shed only for those few. For it to have been shed for the reprobates as well would be waste.

Irresistible Grace says that those whom God elected and atoned in eternity past...and ONLY these...will sooner or later be enabled to hear, understand and believe His will. Conversely, reprobates cannot. [this point of TULIP is the focus of this thread]

Perseverance of the Saints (not the same as OSAS) says that God, being sovereign, will not allow His elected ones to fall away, thus they will persevere unto the end of come what may.

Now compare all that with Acts 17:31.

Because He has appointed a day in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He hath given assurance [faith] unto all, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.
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Can both TULIP and this statement of Paul's be true?

No. God cannot have given faith to ALL men with the expectation that they'd change their minds and be saved, and at the same time have limited the atonement of the Cross to only an elect few. That is an irreconcilable contradiction, meaning one of the two propositions -- TULIP or Paul's statement -- is false.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
musterion said:
Calvinism's TULIP teaches:

Total depravity, meaning man is so literally dead that he cannot even hear God (much less understand or obey Him) unless God does something about it. That leads to,

Unconditional Election, where God chose some to save (the elect) and some to "pass over" (everyone else...reprobates). That in turn leads to,

Limited Atonement -- if God chose only a relative few to save, then the blood of Christ was shed only for those few. For it to have been shed for the reprobates as well would be waste.

Irresistible Grace says that those whom God elected and atoned in eternity past...and ONLY these...will sooner or later be enabled to hear, understand and believe His will. Conversely, reprobates cannot. [this point of TULIP is the focus of this thread]

Perseverance of the Saints (not the same as OSAS) says that God, being sovereign, will not allow His elected ones to fall away, thus they will persevere unto the end of come what may.

Now compare all that with Acts 17:31.



Can both TULIP and this statement of Paul's be true?

No. God cannot have given faith to ALL men, with the expectation that they'd change their minds and be saved, and at the same time have limited the atonement of the Cross to only an elect few. That is an irreconcilable contradiction, meaning one of the two propositions -- TULIP or Paul's statement -- is false.
Click to expand...

(2 Thess 3:2)And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Sometimes "all" doesn't literally mean everyone:

(Matt 2:3 KJV) When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

The above verse says "ALL" of Jerusalem was troubled at the birth of Christ.

We know that it isn't true. We know some in Jerusalem were very happy at the birth of Christ:

(Luke 2:25) Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him......
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Why does it matter what Calvinists believe?

Aren't we called to answer their questions?

We can't call people to the truth, The Father chooses to whom he will reveal truth.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
musterion said:
Calvinism's TULIP teaches:

Total depravity, meaning man is so literally dead that he cannot even hear God (much less understand or obey Him) unless God does something about it. That leads to,

Unconditional Election, where God chose some to save (the elect) and some to "pass over" (everyone else...reprobates). That in turn leads to,

Limited Atonement -- if God chose only a relative few to save, then the blood of Christ was shed only for those few. For it to have been shed for the reprobates as well would be waste.

Irresistible Grace says that those whom God elected and atoned in eternity past...and ONLY these...will sooner or later be enabled to hear, understand and believe His will. Conversely, reprobates cannot. [this point of TULIP is the focus of this thread]

Perseverance of the Saints (not the same as OSAS) says that God, being sovereign, will not allow His elected ones to fall away, thus they will persevere unto the end of come what may.

Now compare all that with Acts 17:31.



Can both TULIP and this statement of Paul's be true?

No. God cannot have given faith to ALL men with the expectation that they'd change their minds and be saved, and at the same time have limited the atonement of the Cross to only an elect few. That is an irreconcilable contradiction, meaning one of the two propositions -- TULIP or Paul's statement -- is false.
Click to expand...

Those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

All men by nature are in the flesh, so cant please God. Since Faith pleases God Heb 11:6, the natural man in the flesh cant do it !
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

All men by nature are in the flesh, so cant please God. Since Faith pleases God Heb 11:6, the natural man in the flesh cant do it !
Click to expand...

No, you can't on your own, but you can through Christ by the spirit, and it doesn't mean that because we are in this body of flesh that we can't please him, it means that our flesh has to die, our old life has to go, so that the life of Christ can be made manifest in us by the spirit.

That's what Jesus means by deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow me. And what Paul means by I die daily.

This is what born again/anew really means, our old man gone, which is our life in the flesh gone, and replaced by the new man which is Christ in the heart.

Galatians 5

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Ephesians 4

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness

Colossians 3

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

2 Corinthians 4

Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

1 Peter 2

Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth

Romans 12

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 5

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

1 peter 1

As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance

Romans 6

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 8

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Titus 2

Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

Matthew 9

Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved

Colossians 2

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances

Colossians 3

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God

2 Timothy 2

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him

Romans 6

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

John 3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 1

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 3

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and.of.the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
 
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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
marhig said:
No, you can't on your own, but you can through Christ by the spirit, and it doesn't mean that because we are in this body of flesh that we can't please him, it means that our flesh has to die, our old life has to go, so that the life of Christ can be made manifest in us by the spirit.

That's what Jesus means by deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow me. And what Paul means by I die daily.

This is what born again/anew really means, our old man gone, which is our life in the flesh gone, and replaced by the new man which is Christ in the heart.

Galatians 5

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Ephesians 4

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness

Colossians 3

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

2 Corinthians 4

Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

1 Peter 2

Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth

Romans 12

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 5

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

1 peter 1

As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance

Romans 6

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 8

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Titus 2

Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

Matthew 9

Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved

Colossians 2

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances

Colossians 3

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God

2 Timothy 2

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him

Romans 6

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

John 3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 1

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 3

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and.of.the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Click to expand...

Those in the flesh cant please God !
 
D

Danoh

New member
beloved57 said:
Those in the flesh cant please God !
Click to expand...

Nope.

Paul's point is that the Believer who attempts to rely on his own strength to serve God only sets off the flesh; and the flesh has no interest in serving God.

Might as well vote for Hillary or Trump expecting a change for the so called better from either of those two posers :chuckle:

In the same manner - for the Believer to expect he can rely on his own strength as he attempts to serve God, is to cast a vote in the impossible.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

See that - attempt to do in your own strength (as had been the case under the Law - back when one's own strength had been called on - that Law might set off sin and by that prove man incapable of serving God in his own strength) and you find you have set off an inner conflict - so that you cannot do the things (serve unto God) that you would.

BUT...IF you walk in an understanding of how things work NOW - THIS SIDE OF GRACE - you won't fall prey by your own hand, into thinking you CAN serve God in YOUR OWN strength...only to find you have merely set off an inner civil...war.

The thing to do is to walk in an understanding the Spirit has revealed in and through His written Word about how these things work.

To walk in His revealed understanding of these things in Written form (The Scripture) is to walk in...the Spirit.

Do that...and you won't set off the flesh's conflict against God.

The Spirit through Paul is talking to, and about, the Believer in Romans 7 and 8; just as he is...in Galatians 5.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Danoh said:
Nope.

Paul's point is that the Believer who attempts to rely on his own strength to serve God only sets off the flesh; and the flesh has no interest in serving God.

Might as well vote for Hillary or Trump expecting a change for the so called better from either of those two posers :chuckle:

In the same manner - for the Believer to expect he can rely on his own strength as he attempts to serve God, is to cast a vote in the impossible.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

See that - attempt to do in your own strength (as had been the case under the Law - back when one's own strength had been called on - that Law might set off sin and by that prove man incapable of serving God in his own strength) and you find you have set off this inner conflict once more - so that you cannot do the things (serve unto God) that you would.

BUT...IF you walk in an understanding of how things work NOW - THIS SIDE OF GRACE - you won't fall prey by your own hand, into thinking you CAN serve God in YOUR OWN strength...only to find you have merely set off an inner civil...war.

The thing to do is to walk in an understanding the Spirit has revealed in and through His written Word about how these things work.

To walk in His revealed understanding of these things in Written form (The Scripture) is to walk in...the Spirit.

Do that...and you won't set off the flesh's conflict against God.

The Spirit through Paul is talking to, and about, the Believer in Romans 7 and 8; just as he is...in Galatians 5.
Click to expand...

They that are in the flesh cant please God Rom 8:8

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
D

Danoh

New member
beloved57 said:
They that are in the flesh cant please God Rom 8:8

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Click to expand...

In the passage...Believers.

He dealt with issues concerning the lost, in Romans 1:18-3:20.

From there until Romans 9, he is dealing with issues having to do with Believers...which he then takes up again in chapter 12 forward.

9-11 being about - well, wait a minute; what about Israel?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Danoh said:
In the passage...Believers.

He dealt with issues concerning the lost, in Romans 1:18-3:20.

From there until Romans 9, he is dealing with issues having to do with Believers...which he then takes up again in chapter 12 forward.

9-11 being about - well, wait a minute; what about Israel?
Click to expand...

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
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