ECT A quote on justification
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glorydaz
Well-known member
Indeed, and therein we find REST. :thumb:
GD, precious one, how are you?
Everybody is Mid Acts in the end :rapture:
glorydaz
Well-known member
I'm fine....unless that was said "tongue in cheek", and then I'm just the same ol' me.
Let me check my heart; it was the one jumping for joy to see you back....
Yep; it was meant in earnest.
You're stuck with a liitle heartfelt affection
Interplanner
Well-known member
I don't think Ironside is quite right to limit the others to forgiveness. Propitiation is clearly in John. Substitutionary actions are found in Peter... John 16:10's righteousness 'dikaiosune' has often been read as refering to justification because of the same word root. Peter in Acts 3:19 uses a bookkeeping term 'wiped away' which again reminds us of Paul and imputation.
musterion
Well-known member
Ironside was MAD, more or less, but did a 180 without ever acknowledging it. Stam, a personal acquaintance, called him on it.
BBS's The Controversy (now retitled) is one of the top books any MAD should read, just for the history showing every objection seen on TOL is actually very, very old.
BBS's The Controversy (now retitled) is one of the top books any MAD should read, just for the history showing every objection seen on TOL is actually very, very old.
The O'Hair-Ironside Debates, more or less...
www.biblical-data.org/OHAIR_defends.pdf
www.markfoster.net/rn/the_recovery_of_lost_truth.pdf
But Peter and John never get beyond forgiveness of sins
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
1Pe 4:9 Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
1Pe 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
1Pe 4:9 Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
1Pe 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Actually, Ironside only appears to be agreeing with Mid-Acts, and this, only with some within Mid-Acts, for as with any school of thought, these things are understood a bit differently within various Mid-Acts camps.
Ironside was Acts 2 Dispensational. It is a school of thought that views Peter and Paul as having preached one and the same gospel.
Paul, in their view, having more fully developed the understanding of the same gospel both were preaching. Ironside's comment is more along this line.
Thus, though Ironside's earlier writings appear to support a Mid-Acts view, that was not his view. His was more along the way of how you and others against MAD look at things, more or less - as with such as Ironside, you fail to see the obvious contradictions in what you post.
O'Hair was able to catch what Ironside had both failed, and refused to catch, O'Hair ending up Mid-Acts as a result.
You'll see Ironside's outright dishonesty in this when confronted about it by O'Hair in the above PDFs I posted.
Taking this point a step further, one in fact, cannot hold to the gifts as still in operation without this patchwork ones size fits all kind of a blind spot in how some look at things.
Seemingly harsh words, I know. My apology for that...
More like "O'Hair, take your "reward" your place in reigning with Me. Ironside "saved yet so as by fire," 1 Cor. 3:14-15.
Read those two pdfs I posted; Ironside's duplicity was very public back then - quit going by your notions...
journey
New member
Ironside and O'Hair both spent their lives in serving God. All men have faults. Is anyone hinting that Ironside wasn't saved because of a fault? He may lose part of his reward due to his fault, but he's in heaven with the Lord and did hear, "Well done good and faithful servant".
musterion
Well-known member
Not me. But if you'd be interested in reading C.R. Stam's personal exchanges with Ironside (verifiable with the Berean Bible Society), I'll be glad to email you my PDF.
journey
New member
What - to show that Ironside had faults? No thanks. I've already stipulated that Ironside had faults. I have a large library - including considerable material from Ironside, O'Hair, and Stam. I'm not going to bash a lifetime servant of God over this issue.
