ECT 2P2P and the New Testament

Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
There are some on this forum who accuse those within the dispensationalism camp of ignoring what is written in the NT when interpreting prophecies found in the OT. However, it is the accusers themselves who fail to do that. Let us look what Paul says here:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).​

Paul puts the time when all israel will be saved in the future. He also ties the salvation to a covenant which will take away their sins.

In the following passage we see an OT prophecy which speaks of both these things:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

We can see that the "fathers" of those who will belong to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the future are those who broke the LORD's covenant. It was the physical descendants of Israel who did that. Therefore, since their fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then all those of both houses will also be the physical descendants of Israel.

And all of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will have their sins forgiven and be saved. Since this has never happened in the past we know for a fact that the fulfillment of this prophecy remains in the future.

This confirms that when Paul uses the word "Israel" at Romans 11:26 he is referring to the physical descendants of Israel. So we can see the the accusers of those within the MAD camp are in reality the ones who pervert the Scriptures found in the NT on this subject in order to support their preconceived ideas.

In fact, they pervert Paul's words at Romans 11:26 and they also pervert the meaning of the passage at Jeremiah 31:31-34!
 
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I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
There are some on this forum who accuse those within the dispensationalism camp of ignoring what is written in the NT when interpreting prophecies found in the OT. However, it is the accusers themselves who fail to do that. Let us look what Paul says here:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).​

Paul puts the time when all israel will be saved in the future. He also ties the salvation to a covenant which will take away their sins.

In the following passage we see an OT prophecy which speaks of both these things:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

We can see that the "fathers" of those who will belong to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the future are those who broke the LORD's covenant. It was the physical descendants of Israel who did that. Therefore, since their fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then all those of both houses will also be the physical descendants of Israel.

And all of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will have their sins forgiven and be saved. Since this has never happened in the past we know for a fact that the fulfillment of this prophecy remains in the future.

This confirms that when Paul uses the word "Israel" at Romans 11:26 he is referring to the physical descendants of Israel. So we can see the the accusers of those within the MAD camp are in reality the ones who pervert the Scriptures found in the NT on this subject in order to support their preconceived ideas.

In fact, they pervert Paul's words at Romans 11:26 and they also pervert the meaning of the passage at Jeremiah 31:31-34!
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The context of Rom 9-11 would do that Jerry, and it does not go with the physical line because nothing in the three chapters does. You are worried about your fav sound-byte and you should be. It is a soundbyte. It is totally flimsy as grammatical-historical interp goes.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
How about we save 'pervert' for sexual things? I don't do THAT. I think 2P2P is a twisted system, and it is very compartmentalized, and skips the real meaning of the NT.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
The context of Rom 9-11 would do that Jerry, and it does not go with the physical line because nothing in the three chapters does. You are worried about your fav sound-byte and you should be. It is a soundbyte. It is totally flimsy as grammatical-historical interp goes.
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Sadly, you say nothing about the passage I quoted at Jeremiah 31:31-34.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
That's because it is in hebrews so we know it is about the Gospel of Christ, and is the new covenant. Did you know THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS is his title there as well as in the Genesis episode about Melchi (KING) Zedek (RIGHTEOUNESS)? And what does Hebrews tell us? That Christ was Melchi-Zedek, and was that priest, and he supercedes Aaron.

that's why the land does not figure in Hebrews; instead, it is the Jerusalem above. The land of Judea did not matter and was not what the pilgrims of faith were seeking after all.

I accept no other commentary than the NT on the OT.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
That's because it is in hebrews so we know it is about the Gospel of Christ, and is the new covenant.
Click to expand...

No, the reason why you refuse to address what is said at Jeremiah 31:31-34 is because it completely destroys your eschatology.

You want us to believe that those verses do not mean exactly what they say. You want us to believe that the Jews who first received that prophecy and believed that it was in regard to the physical descendants of Israel were deceived by the LORD because it never really applied to them at all!

You can trick your mind into believing that fairy tale but don't expect others to share your delusions!
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
No, the reason why you refuse to address what is said at Jeremiah 31:31-34 is because it completely destroys your eschatology.

You want us to believe that those verses do not mean exactly what they say. You want us to believe that the Jews who first received that prophecy and believed that it was in regard to the physical descendants of Israel were deceived by the LORD because it never really applied to them at all!

You can trick your mind into believing that fairy tale but don't expect others to share your delusions!
Click to expand...

Maybe IP is all hat and no ranch?
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
No, the reason why you refuse to address what is said at Jeremiah 31:31-34 is because it completely destroys your eschatology.

You want us to believe that those verses do not mean exactly what they say. You want us to believe that the Jews who first received that prophecy and believed that it was in regard to the physical descendants of Israel were deceived by the LORD because it never really applied to them at all!

You can trick your mind into believing that fairy tale but don't expect others to share your delusions!
Click to expand...




Why didn't Hebrews mention this? It is perfectly excited at the arrival of the new covenant for us now. And since the 2P2P fairy tale is that there are mystery verses for Gentiles in Hebrews (which they won't list), then obviously it is for all of us. The end of Hebrews 11-13 never locates any hope in the passage as you do. It never refers to the land of Israel as you do. Instead all of this is located in the 'Jerusalem above' which we share in by faith until the day that faith gives way to sight ("It is Well").

"Those verses" mean exactly what they are supposed to mean in Christ, says the end of Romans. God has ordered, decreed that the things hidden there are now openly to be be known in Christ. That is the basis for how the nations come into the Christian fellowship, so it ain't no fairy tale. It is how the NT beautifully unfolds like a flower.

As I have shown you from Acts 2, 13, 15, 26 in reference to the throne and the land and the destiny of Israel--the NT simply does not go in your direction. Your direction is a 19th century fantasy from a time when people lost their humor and humanity when reading the Bible. They became very tight minded and very other worldly. They thought they were serving the Bible by counteracting the skepticism toward it coming out of Europe, but it is huge backfire that makes the Bible look ridiculous by basing everything on flimsy prooftexts that don't bear weight.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
God has ordered, decreed that the things hidden there are now openly to be be known in Christ.
Click to expand...

Anyone who will open their eyes can see that there is absolutely nothing HIDDEN in this passage:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

We can see that the "fathers" of those who will belong to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the future are those who broke the LORD's covenant. It was the physical descendants of Israel who did that. Therefore, since their fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then all those of both houses will also be the physical descendants of Israel.

And all of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will have their sins forgiven and be saved. Since this has never happened in the past we know for a fact that the fulfillment of this prophecy remains in the future.

Again, there is nothing HIDDEN in this passage except to people like you who refuse to open their eyes to the truth.
 
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steko

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Interplanner said:
That's because it is in hebrews so we know it is about the Gospel of Christ, and is the new covenant. Did you know THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS is his title there as well as in the Genesis episode about Melchi (KING) Zedek (RIGHTEOUNESS)? And what does Hebrews tell us? That Christ was Melchi-Zedek, and was that priest, and he supercedes Aaron.

that's why the land does not figure in Hebrews; instead, it is the Jerusalem above. The land of Judea did not matter and was not what the pilgrims of faith were seeking after all.

I accept no other commentary than the NT on the OT.
Click to expand...

How 'bout Adonaizedek[Lord of righteousness], king of Jerusalem?
Was he also Christ?
 
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