People will always be free to reject him, even when he rules from Jerusalem. One of the main differences is government corruption will not exist. There shall be no redistribution of income.
You Cannot Have a Free Society Without a Moral People
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
Was unaware you had an empire. Who is
the Emperor? Jesus doesn’t count. I’m looking for a human living person I
can email. Thanks
I noticed this thread yesterday and reread my opening post. That prompted me to ask Chat GPT what the logical ramifications would be of recriminalizing adultery would be. It's initial response predictably missed the point but it lead to what turned into a back and forth that lasted for several hours yesterday afternoon and into this morning. When it had finally run its course, I had it write me a thorough summary of what God's criminal justice system would look like in a modern society. It didn't do a perfect job, but I liked what it produced well enough that I decided to post it here, almost totally intact with only one or two small tweaks. I've been sick with a cold for a few days or I'd have taken the time to turn it into something truly my own but that isn't happening because I can't breath, can't stop sneezing and want to go to sleep now. 
Western civilization has forgotten what justice is. We call it “the justice system,” but what we have is a bloated bureaucracy of punishment without principle. The last Bob Enyart used to say that "it isn't a justice system, it's just a system", and he was right. Criminals cycle through it endlessly while victims are ignored or told to feel empowered for surviving. It has nothing to do with restoring what was lost, nothing to do with deterring evil, and certainly nothing to do with righteousness.
By contrast, the biblical model for criminal justice is clear, proportional, morally coherent, and surprisingly simple. It doesn’t rely on cages, it doesn’t profit the state, and it doesn’t treat evil as a mental illness. It starts with the same principle that governs everyday morality: treat others as you would want to be treated, and if you violate that standard, then it is done to you as you did to your neighbor. That is justice.
That’s the starting point: justice must be moral before it is legal. If you get that wrong, nothing else will work and the result will ultimately be the opposite of what was intended.
If you harm someone, justice means the same harm is returned to you. If you rob someone, justice means you pay them back and you suffer the very loss you imposed on them. That is why double restitution is the norm. Not just “give it back,” but make them whole and then become the one who is now short.
If you steal $100, you owe $200. The first hundred restores the victim. The second hundred does unto you as you did to him. It’s the Golden Rule, reflected onto the criminal. This principle is the foundation of all justice.
When the item is recovered undamaged, the rule is straightforward: return it and add its full value. If it’s destroyed or consumed—if the victim cannot get back what was lost—then the penalty increases. Fourfold. Fivefold. The greater the loss, the greater the repayment. That’s not bureaucratic punishment. That’s moral repair.
If a thief has nothing, he doesn’t go to jail. He doesn’t cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars. He’s not turned loose on society as a “non-violent offender” with ankle bracelets and second chances. He works off the debt. When the victim is repaid and justice is satisfied, the man is free.
This isn’t slavery. This is debt repayment enforced by law. And it’s far more just than any prison ever built.
In a righteous system, restitution always goes to the victim. The state receives nothing from punishment. Its role is to administer justice, not to profit from it.
Vengeance is a good thing—so long as it is just.
The problem isn’t vengeance itself. The problem is unrighteous people taking it into their own hands. That’s why God says “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” It doesn’t mean vengeance is immoral. It means it belongs to God, because He alone is righteous.
Then in Romans 13, God makes it clear how He delivers that vengeance:
The governing authority is God’s minister of vengeance. Not in a fit of rage. Not in a personal feud. Through lawful process. Through public judgment. Through just penalty. That’s not revenge in the sense of passion—it’s vengeance in the sense of righteousness. It is God’s wrath, rightly channeled through delegated authority.
And that authority can include the victim or the victim’s family.
This isn’t vigilante justice. The accused must still be tried and found guilty. But once judgment is passed, the victim is not banished from the process. In biblical law, it is often the avenger of blood—the next of kin—who carries out the sentence. The justice remains public, lawful, and deliberate. But it is also personal.
That is right. That is just. And it keeps the system human.
In Scripture, the victim and his family are central to the process—not just in being made whole, but sometimes in carrying out the sentence itself. If a man murders, it is the family of the murdered who executes justice—not in rage, but as a solemn act of righteous vengeance. If a man defrauds another, it is the victim who receives the payment, and the law ensures it is paid.
Justice remains public and orderly. But it is never abstract.
This protects the innocent, restrains the guilty, and reminds everyone involved that law exists not to preserve the dignity of institutions, but the dignity of persons.
And if someone lies under oath, the penalty is severe. A false witness who tries to see an innocent man punished receives the very penalty he sought to bring on another. That’s how you keep witnesses honest.
Authority without accountability is not justice. It’s tyranny.
However, negligence is another matter. If harm occurs because of reckless behavior—something the person should have known would likely cause damage—then the harm is treated as if it were intended, because the effect is the same. The guilty person must pay, or suffer the same loss he caused.
A proper system would re-establish deterrence without becoming cruel. Swift, measured justice—executed publicly and personally—would teach the righteous to live confidently and the wicked to fear the sword.
Moral laws are different. They are universal, rational, and unchanging. They are never in conflict with one another. They apply to all people in all cultures. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not commit adultery. These laws are not unique to Israel—they are grounded in the nature of God and the dignity of man.
There are a few edge cases. The law about the rebellious son is one. Was it symbolic? Was it specific to Israel? Does it apply only to adults? Good people debate this. But these are rare. And even if a society makes the wrong call on one or two such laws, that’s nothing compared to the perverse systems we currently have in place.
This is not utopian fantasy. It’s rational. It’s biblical. It’s moral. And it’s far more sane than the chaos we’ve normalized today.
The question is not whether this system is perfect. The question is whether what we have now is even remotely defensible in comparison.
Spoiler: it isn’t.
God’s Criminal Justice System
A rational alternative to modern legal failureWestern civilization has forgotten what justice is. We call it “the justice system,” but what we have is a bloated bureaucracy of punishment without principle. The last Bob Enyart used to say that "it isn't a justice system, it's just a system", and he was right. Criminals cycle through it endlessly while victims are ignored or told to feel empowered for surviving. It has nothing to do with restoring what was lost, nothing to do with deterring evil, and certainly nothing to do with righteousness.
By contrast, the biblical model for criminal justice is clear, proportional, morally coherent, and surprisingly simple. It doesn’t rely on cages, it doesn’t profit the state, and it doesn’t treat evil as a mental illness. It starts with the same principle that governs everyday morality: treat others as you would want to be treated, and if you violate that standard, then it is done to you as you did to your neighbor. That is justice.
A Moral System, Not a Bureaucratic One
The first failure of modern legal systems is that they confuse law with morality. A law isn’t righteous because it was passed. It’s only righteous if it actually upholds what is right. We don’t measure justice by the efficiency of the courtroom, or by whether the state followed its own procedure. We measure it by whether the victim is vindicated, whether the criminal is held accountable, and whether society is protected from further harm.That’s the starting point: justice must be moral before it is legal. If you get that wrong, nothing else will work and the result will ultimately be the opposite of what was intended.
What Crime Deserves
The Bible does not present a list of arbitrary punishments. It teaches that justice is reciprocal. That doesn’t mean revenge in the sense of hot anger or personal vendetta. It means moral equivalence.If you harm someone, justice means the same harm is returned to you. If you rob someone, justice means you pay them back and you suffer the very loss you imposed on them. That is why double restitution is the norm. Not just “give it back,” but make them whole and then become the one who is now short.
If you steal $100, you owe $200. The first hundred restores the victim. The second hundred does unto you as you did to him. It’s the Golden Rule, reflected onto the criminal. This principle is the foundation of all justice.
When the item is recovered undamaged, the rule is straightforward: return it and add its full value. If it’s destroyed or consumed—if the victim cannot get back what was lost—then the penalty increases. Fourfold. Fivefold. The greater the loss, the greater the repayment. That’s not bureaucratic punishment. That’s moral repair.
If He Can’t Pay
Then he works. It’s that simple.If a thief has nothing, he doesn’t go to jail. He doesn’t cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars. He’s not turned loose on society as a “non-violent offender” with ankle bracelets and second chances. He works off the debt. When the victim is repaid and justice is satisfied, the man is free.
This isn’t slavery. This is debt repayment enforced by law. And it’s far more just than any prison ever built.
No Fines to the State
One of the most corrupt features of the modern system is the practice of levying fines that are paid to the government. This turns the state into a beneficiary of crime. It introduces perverse incentives. And worst of all, the victim receives nothing.In a righteous system, restitution always goes to the victim. The state receives nothing from punishment. Its role is to administer justice, not to profit from it.
What About Vengeance?
People are quick to say that justice isn’t about revenge. That sounds noble, but it’s not quite right.Vengeance is a good thing—so long as it is just.
The problem isn’t vengeance itself. The problem is unrighteous people taking it into their own hands. That’s why God says “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” It doesn’t mean vengeance is immoral. It means it belongs to God, because He alone is righteous.
Then in Romans 13, God makes it clear how He delivers that vengeance:
The governing authority is God’s minister of vengeance. Not in a fit of rage. Not in a personal feud. Through lawful process. Through public judgment. Through just penalty. That’s not revenge in the sense of passion—it’s vengeance in the sense of righteousness. It is God’s wrath, rightly channeled through delegated authority.
And that authority can include the victim or the victim’s family.
This isn’t vigilante justice. The accused must still be tried and found guilty. But once judgment is passed, the victim is not banished from the process. In biblical law, it is often the avenger of blood—the next of kin—who carries out the sentence. The justice remains public, lawful, and deliberate. But it is also personal.
That is right. That is just. And it keeps the system human.
Justice Is Personal—And It Should Stay That Way
Modern legal systems act like crimes are committed against the state. They aren’t. They’re committed against real people. And in a just system, those people are not pushed to the sidelines.In Scripture, the victim and his family are central to the process—not just in being made whole, but sometimes in carrying out the sentence itself. If a man murders, it is the family of the murdered who executes justice—not in rage, but as a solemn act of righteous vengeance. If a man defrauds another, it is the victim who receives the payment, and the law ensures it is paid.
Justice remains public and orderly. But it is never abstract.
This protects the innocent, restrains the guilty, and reminds everyone involved that law exists not to preserve the dignity of institutions, but the dignity of persons.
Proving Guilt
A man is not guilty because he is accused. Evidence matters. What matters is not whether the defense lawyer is clever, or whether a judge allowed certain pieces of evidence to be admitted. What matters is whether the claim is true and the evidence supports it. The standard is not “beyond a reasonable doubt” as modern courts define it. The standard is reasonable evidence—not guesswork, not suspicion, but actual proof that makes rational sense.And if someone lies under oath, the penalty is severe. A false witness who tries to see an innocent man punished receives the very penalty he sought to bring on another. That’s how you keep witnesses honest.
What Role Do Judges Play?
They render judgment. That’s what the word means. But unlike the modern model, a biblical judge is not insulated from consequence. If a judge rules unjustly—if his verdict is dishonest, careless, or biased—then he is subject to scrutiny. If misconduct is found, then he is judged by the same standard as everyone else. He bears the weight of what was at stake. That might mean restitution, or it might mean death.Authority without accountability is not justice. It’s tyranny.
What About Accidents?
They’re accidents. Justice doesn’t punish someone for doing something they didn’t intend. If a man makes an honest mistake and someone is hurt, that’s tragic, but it isn’t criminal.However, negligence is another matter. If harm occurs because of reckless behavior—something the person should have known would likely cause damage—then the harm is treated as if it were intended, because the effect is the same. The guilty person must pay, or suffer the same loss he caused.
What About Attempted Crimes?
The biblical principle is that a man is judged not just by the outcome, but by what he intended to do. If he tries to murder and fails, justice doesn’t say, “Well, better luck next time.” It treats the attempt as a completed crime. The moral guilt lies in the will.The Role of Deterrence
Deterrence matters. It is not the purpose of justice, but it is one of the results. And for it to work, punishment must be public, proportional, and swift. Modern delays—where criminals wait 20 years for an execution that may never come—obliterate the deterrent effect. Hidden justice has no voice. Long-delayed justice has no strength.A proper system would re-establish deterrence without becoming cruel. Swift, measured justice—executed publicly and personally—would teach the righteous to live confidently and the wicked to fear the sword.
Not Every Old Testament Law Was Meant for Export
There is a difference between moral law and symbolic law. Ceremonial laws—the Sabbath, dietary restrictions, circumcision, priestly rituals—were unique to Israel. They pointed to something greater. They were shadows, not substance.Moral laws are different. They are universal, rational, and unchanging. They are never in conflict with one another. They apply to all people in all cultures. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not commit adultery. These laws are not unique to Israel—they are grounded in the nature of God and the dignity of man.
There are a few edge cases. The law about the rebellious son is one. Was it symbolic? Was it specific to Israel? Does it apply only to adults? Good people debate this. But these are rare. And even if a society makes the wrong call on one or two such laws, that’s nothing compared to the perverse systems we currently have in place.
Final Word
A system like this would change the world. Crime would plummet. Families would stabilize. The innocent would no longer be neglected. The guilty would actually face justice. And the state would stop profiting off misery.This is not utopian fantasy. It’s rational. It’s biblical. It’s moral. And it’s far more sane than the chaos we’ve normalized today.
The question is not whether this system is perfect. The question is whether what we have now is even remotely defensible in comparison.
Spoiler: it isn’t.