Constitutional Monarchy

Idolater

Idolater

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Clete said:
The selection process would yield a small group of candidates (i.e. at least two, and possibly as many as five, perhaps more) from which the final choice would be made by some form of random selection, essentially by casting lots. This entire process would be carried out locally by the residents of the area affected by the selection, since they would have a vested interest in ensuring it was done properly.
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Just so I know I'm following you.

There would be a nomination process (selection process but not an election), and then the confirmation would be made by a randomizer.

So long as the nomination process is not democratic in any way, then this would not be a democracy.

OK. Now I can read your post with the right definition of your terms.
 
Clete

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Idolater said:
Just so I know I'm following you.

There would be a nomination process (selection process but not an election), and then the confirmation would be made by a randomizer.

So long as the nomination process is not democratic in any way, then this would not be a democracy.

OK. Now I can read your post with the right definition of your terms.
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"‘Not democratic in any way’ is probably an overstatement.

I'm not allergic to groups of people making certain decisions. For instance, the Apostles selected two candidates whom they deemed qualified to replace Judas, and then cast lots to determine the final choice. The term ‘democratic’ might loosely apply to that initial selection process, but certainly not in the broader political or governmental sense in which we usually use the word.

In practical terms, once the initial group of judges is appointed, any future candidates to replace a judge, (i.e. due to resignation, death, or some other cause), might be selected the sitting judges who have jurisdiction in that region. In some cases, one of the current judges might himself be a suitable candidate, potentially triggering a chain of subsequent appointments.

The key principle, though, is that the final decision is not left to the general population but to God, or at least it is meant to be, in principle if not always in actual fact. That is, God would not need to supernaturally control every roll of the dice to determine the outcome. He may approve of any among the qualified candidates and allow chance to determine the selection. Yet the people involved would have no way of knowing whether He had actively intervened, and so from their perspective, the decision would still be entrusted to Him.
 
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JudgeRightly

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JudgeRightly said:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1928831768557216225
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Before it gets lost...

@Clete, something like this is why I'm generally against there being any means of removing a sitting king.

Trump was elected. He won multiple different ways.

Yet some people with the power to do so are calling to exercise their power to remove a sitting president, and they're not afraid to bear false witness regarding why he should be removed.

Yes, granted, we live under a very corrupt government. But that's the whole crux of the matter, isn't it. How do you remove the corrupt ones from power who have the power to remove the leader who is just?

Do you add another way to remove them as well? At what level do you stop adding the means to do so?
 
Clete

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JudgeRightly said:
Before it gets lost...

@Clete, something like this is why I'm generally against there being any means of removing a sitting king.

Trump was elected. He won multiple different ways.

Yet some people with the power to do so are calling to exercise their power to remove a sitting president, and they're not afraid to bear false witness regarding why he should be removed.

Yes, granted, we live under a very corrupt government. But that's the whole crux of the matter, isn't it. How do you remove the corrupt ones from power who have the power to remove the leader who is just?

Do you add another way to remove them as well? At what level do you stop adding the means to do so?
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Well, this is sort of a error of logic isn't it?

You touch on it when you mention that we live with a corrupt government but it's more than that. Our government isn't merely corrupt, it is systemically run by politicians. There wouldn't be politicians in the proposed government and so you're making a kind of category error here.

Remember that judges in the proposed system are to be held accountable for their decisions. There is a process by which that accountability would be enforced. This, along with the fact that they are not elected, would go very far indeed towards ensuring that corruption of the sort you are worried about couldn't take root. All I am proposing is that this process aught not stop before it gets to the highest judge because then the king would not enjoy the same inoculating effects against corruption that the other judges benefit from.
 
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inthebeginning

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For a government ruled by man's law, then constitutional monarchy should be the best option, until the Messiah comes back.

Democracy (better called democrazy) if the most corrupt form of government ever existed on the face of earth.

Even more, the "beast" mentioned in the book of Revelation, is no more no less than a political, economic, social and religious system. The "beast" is so powerful because the whole world follows it as its flag to be saluted. People defend the "beast" with all their heart, for them is the greatest of the greatest. Any nation that decides to have a king, or is ruled by a dictator, the "beast" will consider it as "evil" and its worst enemy. And people will clap when the "beast" invades and destroys any other form of government that is not democratic.

Yes, the great political system before the coming of the Messiah is democracy. The other complement is the economic system, the current one we observe in the world. Same as well, societies of different countries actually are dressing the same, have the same social principles, but if a nation decides to have their own social rules, then the "beast" attacks again, and teach its followers that such a nation is "evil".

The religious system is slowly but surely taking control as well. There are thousands of religions, but the majority are unknown by the general population. And soon the different religions will end having a kind of agreement.

The "beast", admired by many, is the weapon of Satan, the deceiver. Religious people can't see it but have fell in the trap. Bible says, "get out of the beast", don't be part of it, but people has been blinded, they see in the "beast" attributes like freedom, peace, equality, progress, and more.

The political leaders are all corrupt and liars, but people pay no attention to that, after all "nobody is perfect".

OK, the "beast" is the winner... by now. Bible says the "beast" will fall, and here, right here is when people finally will open their eyes, and for many will be too late.

Ther is no indication at all that Jesus and the apostles supported the political system of their era, they lived without participating in favor or against the system. Jesus never told the soldier to quit his job otherwise no miracle will be performed for him. Jesus worked for the Kingdom of God, and I think that must be our duty as well.
 
Clete

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inthebeginning said:
For a government ruled by man's law, then constitutional monarchy should be the best option, until the Messiah comes back.

Democracy (better called democrazy) if the most corrupt form of government ever existed on the face of earth.

Even more, the "beast" mentioned in the book of Revelation, is no more no less than a political, economic, social and religious system. The "beast" is so powerful because the whole world follows it as its flag to be saluted. People defend the "beast" with all their heart, for them is the greatest of the greatest. Any nation that decides to have a king, or is ruled by a dictator, the "beast" will consider it as "evil" and its worst enemy. And people will clap when the "beast" invades and destroys any other form of government that is not democratic.

Yes, the great political system before the coming of the Messiah is democracy. The other complement is the economic system, the current one we observe in the world. Same as well, societies of different countries actually are dressing the same, have the same social principles, but if a nation decides to have their own social rules, then the "beast" attacks again, and teach its followers that such a nation is "evil".

The religious system is slowly but surely taking control as well. There are thousands of religions, but the majority are unknown by the general population. And soon the different religions will end having a kind of agreement.

The "beast", admired by many, is the weapon of Satan, the deceiver. Religious people can't see it but have fell in the trap. Bible says, "get out of the beast", don't be part of it, but people has been blinded, they see in the "beast" attributes like freedom, peace, equality, progress, and more.

The political leaders are all corrupt and liars, but people pay no attention to that, after all "nobody is perfect".

OK, the "beast" is the winner... by now. Bible says the "beast" will fall, and here, right here is when people finally will open their eyes, and for many will be too late.

Ther is no indication at all that Jesus and the apostles supported the political system of their era, they lived without participating in favor or against the system. Jesus never told the soldier to quit his job otherwise no miracle will be performed for him. Jesus worked for the Kingdom of God, and I think that must be our duty as well.
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While I agree that constitutional monarchy is the most stable and biblically defensible form of government for a fallen world ruled by man’s law, I must respectfully disagree with the claim that democracy itself is “the beast” described in Revelation.

The Beast of Revelation is far more than just a political system. It is a comprehensive global regime—political, economic, religious, and cultural—that arises in defiance of God. To reduce it to a singular form of government like democracy is to flatten the text and over-allegorize something the Bible presents as complex and multifaceted.

Moreover, the notion that the Beast will hate monarchy because it is monarchy is not grounded in Scripture. There is no biblical warrant for this idea. Revelation tells us that the Beast will partner with kings, not oppose all forms of monarchy:

Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.​

In other words, kings and monarchies are not inherently opposed to the Beast system. Indeed, it seems that, in fact, they become part of it. The issue is not monarchy vs democracy; the issue is godliness vs rebellion, righteousness vs corruption, Christ vs Antichrist.

Yes, modern Western democracies are deeply corrupt and often hostile to truth, but so are most monarchies and dictatorships today. The real distinction is not the form of government but the spirit behind it. Any system, whether it be a democracy, monarchy, or otherwise, that exalts man, suppresses truth, replaces God with government and wars against Christ is part of the Beast’s program.

I agree with your concern about world systems and the false hope people place in them, but assigning the label of “Beast” so narrowly misses the actual, global, multifaceted nature of what Revelation describes.
 
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I

inthebeginning

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Clete said:
While I agree that constitutional monarchy is the most stable and biblically defensible form of government for a fallen world ruled by man’s law, I must respectfully disagree with the claim that democracy itself is “the beast” described in Revelation.

The Beast of Revelation is far more than just a political system. It is a comprehensive global regime—political, economic, religious, and cultural—that arises in defiance of God. To reduce it to a singular form of government like democracy is to flatten the text and over-allegorize something the Bible presents as complex and multifaceted.

Moreover, the notion that the Beast will hate monarchy because it is monarchy is not grounded in Scripture. There is no biblical warrant for this idea. Revelation tells us that the Beast will partner with kings, not oppose all forms of monarchy:

Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.​

In other words, kings and monarchies are not inherently opposed to the Beast system. Indeed, it seems that, in fact, they become part of it. The issue is not monarchy vs democracy; the issue is godliness vs rebellion, righteousness vs corruption, Christ vs Antichrist.

Yes, modern Western democracies are deeply corrupt and often hostile to truth, but so are most monarchies and dictatorships today. The real distinction is not the form of government but the spirit behind it. Any system, whether it be a democracy, monarchy, or otherwise, that exalts man, suppresses truth, replaces God with government and wars against Christ is part of the Beast’s program.

I agree with your concern about world systems and the false hope people place in them, but assigning the label of “Beast” so narrowly misses the actual, global, multifaceted nature of what Revelation describes.
Click to expand...
In my posting I said: "the "beast" mentioned in the book of Revelation, is no more no less than a political, economic, social and religious system".

You said later in your reply: The Beast of Revelation is far more than just a political system. It is a comprehensive global regime—political, economic, religious, and cultural.
 
I

inthebeginning

Member
Clete said:
While I agree that constitutional monarchy is the most stable and biblically defensible form of government for a fallen world ruled by man’s law, I must respectfully disagree with the claim that democracy itself is “the beast” described in Revelation.

The Beast of Revelation is far more than just a political system. It is a comprehensive global regime—political, economic, religious, and cultural—that arises in defiance of God. To reduce it to a singular form of government like democracy is to flatten the text and over-allegorize something the Bible presents as complex and multifaceted.

Moreover, the notion that the Beast will hate monarchy because it is monarchy is not grounded in Scripture. There is no biblical warrant for this idea. Revelation tells us that the Beast will partner with kings, not oppose all forms of monarchy:

Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.​

In other words, kings and monarchies are not inherently opposed to the Beast system. Indeed, it seems that, in fact, they become part of it. The issue is not monarchy vs democracy; the issue is godliness vs rebellion, righteousness vs corruption, Christ vs Antichrist.

Yes, modern Western democracies are deeply corrupt and often hostile to truth, but so are most monarchies and dictatorships today. The real distinction is not the form of government but the spirit behind it. Any system, whether it be a democracy, monarchy, or otherwise, that exalts man, suppresses truth, replaces God with government and wars against Christ is part of the Beast’s program.

I agree with your concern about world systems and the false hope people place in them, but assigning the label of “Beast” so narrowly misses the actual, global, multifaceted nature of what Revelation describes.
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The beast from the water and the beast from "the land".

It can be said, from the waters means from the multitudes, from "the land" means from the physical land of Israel.

It is notorious that together represent the twelve tribes, ten tribes which became pagan (lost sheep of Israel according to Jesus) and the other two tribes, the ones that maintained their identity.

The language used in Revelation still is in prophetical mode, this is to say, it will mention horses, kings, and similar but still could mean armies, diseases, leaders, etc.
 
Clete

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inthebeginning said:
The beast from the water and the beast from "the land".

It can be said, from the waters means from the multitudes, from "the land" means from the physical land of Israel.

It is notorious that together represent the twelve tribes, ten tribes which became pagan (lost sheep of Israel according to Jesus) and the other two tribes, the ones that maintained their identity.

The language used in Revelation still is in prophetical mode, this is to say, it will mention horses, kings, and similar but still could mean armies, diseases, leaders, etc.
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Yeah, sure! It can mean anything you want it to mean! Right?

Maybe John saw Apache helicopters!
 
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Clete

Clete

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inthebeginning said:
In my posting I said: "the "beast" mentioned in the book of Revelation, is no more no less than a political, economic, social and religious system".

You said later in your reply: The Beast of Revelation is far more than just a political system. It is a comprehensive global regime—political, economic, religious, and cultural.
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That's your response to what I said?

What is it about this website that makes people think it's okay to waste everyone's time?
 
I

inthebeginning

Member
Clete said:
Yeah, sure! I can mean anything you want it to mean! Right?

Maybe John saw Apache helicopters!
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Point is that even when the explanation given in Revelation says "kings", such is the language used because in those times weren't presidents. In order to real families obtain today or in the future their former status as kings and rule as such, then democracy should have been discarded already. If that is what will happen, then you might be right with your interpretation. Just keep the magic aside of all this, Ok?

Then you said John maybe saw Apache helicopters. I guess you are well behind modern and future army logistic. If you said 5 years ago what you just said here, people will "admire" your assumption, but you saying that today is almost obsolete. If you imply, let's say, drones, oh man, now you are talking. It will be good to update your way of interpretation in order to fit Bible predictions in today's events. Lol.
 
Clete

Clete

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inthebeginning said:
Point is that even when the explanation given in Revelation says "kings", such is the language used because in those times weren't presidents. In order to real families obtain today or in the future their former status as kings and rule as such, then democracy should have been discarded already. If that is what will happen, then you might be right with your interpretation. Just keep the magic aside of all this, Ok?

Then you said John maybe saw Apache helicopters. I guess you are well behind modern and future army logistic. If you said 5 years ago what you just said here, people will "admire" your assumption, but you saying that today is almost obsolete. If you imply, let's say, drones, oh man, now you are talking. It will be good to update your way of interpretation in order to fit Bible predictions in today's events. Lol.
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It seems you are trying to miss the point.
 
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