An excerpt from the original Pilgrims in the Plymoth colony.

when the military go to the border cut the fence and run away - tear down barricades and run away knowing that they are opening the door and gate for 80 % of all women and children to be raped and butchered crossing that USA line at the border.


this is tossing the flag in the ditch, disrobing , casting off the uniform, throwing off the colors and scattering into the interior.

this is a pattern for the patriot.... King James l " lives on

when that Patriot gets the report - 18 little girls raped in the last 6 months

12 women found dead crossing that USA line at the border. -

this is confirmation that the Patriot Soldier does not need to go and make sure the gate is open, make sure the fence is not repaired - he don't need to check on anything

the gate is wide open, women and children are being raped and butchered and that's all he needs to know = mission accomplished - no need to go down and check on it.

Insight me said:

thank you " Clete " for taking time to reply to my comment
please consider the facts about the Original Puritans

PLEASE CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION



King James l of England was known for shipping criminals to America

The British government subsidized the shipment of convicts CRIMINALS - MENTALLY INSANE/ pimps, rapists, thieves, murders, poisoners rioters and prostitutes

and more than 200,000 criminals were transported to the penal colonies from 1615 to 1870

the truth is unfortunately King James did not send us a total record of the total amount of criminals he sent to harass and destroy the Puritans

all we can do is do our best to make a best estimation based on the information we have and realize who King James was and what he did to promote his personal interests while dumping un unknown hundreds thousand or more criminals into the United States.


My comments about the French and Spain who were here in the United States is associated with a very small silent invasion, not a whole scale or grand scale operation

but the French and Spanish and British were here in the USA attempting to influence everything they could - in fact they were selling weapons to the Native Indians in order to take control over the fur trade.

the revolutionary war was a trade war to seize control over the fur trade and the quick cash crop export to Europe

the revolutionary soldiers quickly disrobed, tossed away their flags and colors and cast 0ff their garments and assisted the invaders in the fur trade with hundreds of Military forts across the USA

they completely bled this dry, destroying all of the most healthy, the biggest and most beautiful animals in that roamed the wilderness

to Europe

then the revolutionary soldiers having disrobed, tossed away their flags and colors and cast off their garments and began working to ship in millions of African slaves ==== for quick cash crop - to European markets
completely stripping the nutrients out of the soil, completely destroying the ability for the soil to defend crops in its natural environment.

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Please see our rules:
Thread 'The Current UPDATED TOL Ten Commandments' https://theologyonline.com/threads/the-current-updated-tol-ten-commandments.59431/

Sherman said:

Please do not post in ALL CAPS or in all bolded text.

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So, once again, you’re veering off into a fog of historical fiction and ideological bias. Let’s clarify a few things with actual history rather than this emotional revisionism dressed up as analysis.

Insight me said:

The original Pilgrims were outnumbered and the tiny minority among the British, Spain and French here in the USA.

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That’s a confusing claim. The Pilgrims were among the earliest British settlers, landing in 1620. At that point, there was no “USA,” and certainly no overwhelming influx of British, French, and Spanish settlers "already here." The Spanish had established missions in the southwest and Florida, the French in parts of Canada and the Mississippi River valley, and the British were establishing coastal colonies. None of that amounts to them “outnumbering” the Pilgrims in their own colony. That’s not even coherent.

Insight me said:

...it was still the USA that we see today filled with Europeans who are still immigrating...

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No, it wasn’t. The United States didn't exist until 1776, and it wasn’t even remotely “what we see today.” The North American continent was sparsely populated, mostly wilderness, dotted with tribal territories and primitive settlements. What would become the United States was the result of centuries of development (i.e. economic, political, agricultural, technological, military, etc.) driven almost entirely by European Christian civilization.

Insight me said:

King James persecuted the Puritans even after they left England and went to Holland...

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This part is closer to the truth. James I did crack down on religious dissenters, and the Puritans did face harassment. However, to spin this into a conspiracy where James personally ordered criminals to be sent across the ocean to attack Puritan colonists is ridiculous. You’re turning real persecution into a cartoonish villain plot. The transportation of convicts to the colonies, first to Virginia and later to Australia did happen, but it was never aimed at “destroying” the Puritans. That just did not happen!

Insight me said:

He was the type of religious nut who would send a psychopath murderer 4000 miles...

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That’s not history, that’s cinematic fantasy. You're trying to turn James I into some sort of super villain, like a 17th century version of Thanos. There’s no evidence that King James intentionally weaponized criminals to target settlers. You’re just speculating wildly and smearing based on nothing but conjecture. Who in the world is teaching you this utter nonsense?

Insight me said:

...King James I through his despicable son King Charles carried out the role...

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Again, you’re conflating events and stretching timelines. Charles I did continue many of James’ policies, but your framing is just more sensationalism. Both monarchs were flawed, sure, but they weren’t orchestrating some genocidal campaign against the Puritans by way of dumping lunatics into the colonies. That’s pure fantasy.

Insight me said:

Your formula puts words into my mouth...

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So, first of all, I've quoted your words verbatim and responded directly to what you said. The entire discussion is still right here for the whole world to read. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I’m just pointing out that your interpretations consistently overreach, assume intent without evidence, and twist legitimate hardship into wild conspiracy. You’re not presenting history, you’re spinning a narrative to make colonial America sound like a hellscape of intentional evil, which is a gross distortion of what actually happened.

The truth is, while persecution and hardship were real, so was courage, innovation, perseverance, and transformation. The Pilgrims and other settlers laid the groundwork for what would become the freest, wealthiest, most opportunity-filled nation in the whole history of mankind! Not by accident, not by means of the incoherent moanings of tribal tree worshipers, and certainly not by moral equivalence with every other culture, but through distinctly Christian values applied over long periods of time.

Before Christian European settlement, the continent was not a utopia of harmony and progress. It was largely tribal, illiterate, technologically stunted, lawless and extremely violent. It was Christian civilization that built anything here that anyone now cares to remember with any legitimate fondness.

You can resent that, or you can recognize it, but you don’t get to rewrite history just to virtue signal 400 years after the fact.

Clete said:

The Pilgrims and other settlers laid the groundwork for what would become the freest, wealthiest, most opportunity-filled nation in the whole history of mankind!

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Except for Israel during the earlier part of Solomon's reign.

Right Divider said:

Except for Israel during the earlier part of Solomon's reign.

1Kgs 10:21-23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:21) ¶ And all king Solomon's drinking vessels [were of] gold, and all the vessels of the house of the forest of Lebanon [were of] pure gold; none [were of] silver: it was nothing accounted of in the days of Solomon. (10:22) For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks. (10:23) So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom. ​

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I disagree.

Solomon exceeded all the kings of the Earth up to that point and his nation was certainly more just than ours but what the United States has accomplished in terms of scientific knowledge, technology, quality of life, etc and in terms of cultural influence of the entire planet including improving the quality of life of literally billions of people is nothing he could have ever dreamed of, never mind accomplished. There are several times more people in the United States right now than existed on the whole planet at the time of Solomon, let alone in Israel.

Clete said:

I disagree.

Solomon exceeded all the kings of the Earth up to that point and his nation was certainly more just than ours but what the United States has accomplished in terms of scientific knowledge, technology, quality of life, etc

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Obviously... technology has changed. That does not mean greater wealth.

Perhaps you need a more fair scale with which to judge relative wealth historically.

Clete said:

and in terms of cultural influence of the entire planet including improving the quality of life of literally billions of people is nothing he could have ever dreamed of, never mind accomplished. There are several times more people in the United States right now than existed on the whole planet at the time of Solomon, let along in Israel.

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Again, the world has changed. But that does not mean that Israel's wealth at that time was not greater than the USA today.

Right Divider said:

Obviously... technology has changed. That does not mean greater wealth.

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Of course it does! Wealth is more than money. You and I benefit from the wealth generation of countless people all over the planet. You can go right now and buy a tiny device that fits in your pocket and connects you instantly to the entire world's knowledge and communication networks, a flashlight that shines bright enough to illuminate an entire room without fire, incredibly durable synthetic fabrics that stay clean and dry, medicines that cure diseases which were deadly less than two centuries ago, edible foods grown in controlled environments year-round, exotic foods and plants that Solomon had no idea existed and wouldn't have had access to if he did, affordable glasses that correct almost any vision problem, light weight, portable and rechargeable batteries that power your gadgets for hours, compact cameras that capture and store thousands of images, and small, lightweight watches that keep perfectly accurate time without winding.

Right Divider said:

Perhaps you need a more fair scale with which to judge relative wealth historically.

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I really don't think so. I mean, on and on and on you could go listing countless things that Solomon would have thought miraculous and that we all have easy access to but that we could not produce by ourselves and all because of a society built, as it were, on the shoulders of Solomon, a society primarily shaped by biblical theism that held that truth is objective, nature is governed by consistent laws, and human beings are capable of discovering those laws through observation and reason. Without that intellectual and moral foundation, the technological miracles we now take for granted would have remained unimaginable dreams.

Right Divider said:

Again, the world has changed. But that does not mean that Israel's wealth at that time was not greater than the USA today.

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America spends in a week more than Solomon ever owned.

The U.S. has approximately $3.1 trillion in assets not counting over 640 million acres of land that it owns.

Clete said:

The U.S. has approximately $3.1 trillion in assets not counting over 640 million acres of land that it owns.

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And a national debt of almost 37 TRILLION dollars.

thanks for taking the time to bear out my perspective and read what i was saying

please remember nearly half of the Puritans died during the voyage on ships, only 50 of the original 102 passengers survived the first winter

but I ask, were these " Original Puritans “ involved in persecuting anyone - ?

after they arrived in America - by 70 years they were surrounded by hundreds of thousands of other Europeans

King James had already been flooding the Colonies with all of the unwanted of England - even five years before the Puritans had even arrived - as early as 1615 -

and the Puritans first arrived in 1620

+ The Puritans came to the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1629,
+ the Saybrook Colony in 1635,
+ the Connecticut Colony in 1636,
+ and the New Haven Colony in 1638.

The SALEM WITCH TRIALS were in - 1692

would it be completely impossible 72 long years after the ORIGINAL Puritans arrived for this very small and minority community to have any control of anything around them whom were a very, very tiny minority.

72 years after they arrived the ORIGINAL EARLY PURITIANS quickly became a minority group among a massive tidal wave of hundreds of thousands of other European

History tell us that not all of the migrating Puritans who came at a later time were truly Puritans;

there were significant differences in their backgrounds and motivations. Most Puritans who migrated to New England came from prosperous middle-class families and had skills, unlike many poorer immigrants

The Great Migration (1629–1640) saw many Puritans seeking a model Christian society, but not all were strictly adhering to Puritan beliefs. Could it be that the Salem Witch Trials were not carried out by anyone associated to the Original Puritans who had arrived 72 years earlier ?

and that the true Original Puritans who were seeking religious freedom from persecution truly had no control over anything and were a very tiny and small minority having no involvement in the Salem Witch Trials ?

and that the Salem Witch Trials were just blamed on the Puritans and conducted by individuals were not truly Puritans ?

i feel it is worth a thought, mostly because when we look at the Salem Witch Trials

there is no known historical connection to the Original Puritans aboard the Mayflower that connects these families or their grandchildren to conducting violence or persecution or the Salem Witch Trials

i believe if there was a connection this information would most likely be recorded and known history but it is the opposite, the history of the Puritans that we see is very diverse

for example ....

The descendants of the" original Puritan families " largely integrated into broader American society over time, becoming Yankees and adopting more secular values while still maintaining some of their original moral and cultural influences. Many became involved in various professions and industries, including sailing, trade, and politics. Some also migrated to Canada during the Revolutionary War, often as loyalists to the Crown

here, the history is saying that descendants of the original Puritan families were loyal to Britain and left the USA and went to Canada .

i have taken some time to read a good deal of history about the original Puritans and the record is a very limited fact based with a very wide brush that skews and paints many diverse types of religious groups who existed at a later date as a puritan faith ...... i just simply have the question - -

who were the vast majority of people claiming to be Puritans 70 - 200 years after the fact... were they truly the same as the Original Puritians ? ?

Right Divider said:

And a national debt of almost 37 TRILLION dollars.

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Actually, the total on the debit side of the ledger is more like 45 trillion, but that is genuinely beside the point.

There are individual citizens of America that are worth more in terms of total net wealth that Solomon ever owned combined throughout his life and the land mass that Ted Turner owns is, by itself, more than Solomon could have dreamed of controlling and Turner does it without an army. What's more is Solomon gained his wealth by governmental force (e.g. mostly in the form of tributes paid to Israel from other nations) vs. people like Thomas Edison, Andrew Carnegie, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk (in his early years), Buckminster Fuller, and Fred Smith all built their wealth by providing goods and services that people actually wanted and voluntarily bought; a feat that Solomon never even attempted.

In short, the point I'm making is that the bible does not teach that Solomon was the greatest king and the richest man that will ever exist in all of human history. He wasn't even the greatest king that Israel ever had for that matter. I'd say that title goes to Josiah who rediscovered the lost scriptures and re-instituted temple worship in Israel.

Insight me said:

thanks for taking the time to bear out my perspective and read what i was saying

please remember nearly half of the Puritans died during the voyage on ships, only 50 of the original 102 passengers survived the first winter

but I ask, were these " Original Puritans “ involved in persecuting anyone - ?

after they arrived in America - by 70 years they were surrounded by hundreds of thousands of other Europeans

King James had already been flooding the Colonies with all of the unwanted of England - even five years before the Puritans had even arrived - as early as 1615 -

and the Puritans first arrived in 1620

+ The Puritans came to the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1629,
+ the Saybrook Colony in 1635,
+ the Connecticut Colony in 1636,
+ and the New Haven Colony in 1638.

The SALEM WITCH TRIALS were in - 1692

would it be completely impossible 72 long years after the ORIGINAL Puritans arrived for this very small and minority community to have any control of anything around them whom were a very, very tiny minority.

72 years after they arrived the ORIGINAL EARLY PURITIANS quickly became a minority group among a massive tidal wave of hundreds of thousands of other European

History tell us that not all of the migrating Puritans who came at a later time were truly Puritans;

there were significant differences in their backgrounds and motivations. Most Puritans who migrated to New England came from prosperous middle-class families and had skills, unlike many poorer immigrants

The Great Migration (1629–1640) saw many Puritans seeking a model Christian society, but not all were strictly adhering to Puritan beliefs. Could it be that the Salem Witch Trials were not carried out by anyone associated to the Original Puritans who had arrived 72 years earlier ?

and that the true Original Puritans who were seeking religious freedom from persecution truly had no control over anything and were a very tiny and small minority having no involvement in the Salem Witch Trials ?

and that the Salem Witch Trials were just blamed on the Puritans and conducted by individuals were not truly Puritans ?

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This is all just revisionist nonsense, which I think I've established well enough with my responses to your other posts which I can't even tell that you're bothering to read. I won't waste any more time with this literal stupidity.

Clete said:

Actually, the total on the debit side of the ledger is more like 45 trillion, but that is genuinely beside the point.

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So... a nation with no assets whatsoever is ~40 trillion dollars wealthier than the USA.
(and YES, I understand that wealth is not just cash assets).

Clete said:

There are individual citizens of America that are worth more in terms of total net wealth that Solomon ever owned combined throughout his life and the land mass that Ted Turner owns is, by itself, more than Solomon could have dreamed of controlling and Turner does it without an army.

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Solomon's net worth is estimated to be 2-2.5 trillion dollars (in today's dollar, ref: Google Gemini).

Clete said:

What's more is Solomon gained his wealth by governmental force (e.g. mostly in the form of tributes paid to Israel from other nations) vs. people like Thomas Edison, Andrew Carnegie, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk (in his early years), Buckminster Fuller, and Fred Smith all built their wealth by providing goods and services that people actually wanted and voluntarily bought; a feat that Solomon never even attempted.

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Documentation please (i.e., wealth by governmental force).

Clete said:

In short, the point I'm making is that the bible does not teach that Solomon was the greatest king and the richest man that will ever exist in all of human history.

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Who made such a claim?

Clete said:

He wasn't even the greatest king that Israel ever had for that matter.

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There were TWO sides of Solomon. The great one where he was a type of Christ and his later years where he was a type of anti-Christ.

Clete said:

I'd say that title goes to Josiah who rediscovered the lost scriptures and re-instituted temple worship in Israel.

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That's an opinion. Was Josiah wiser than Solomon?

The Bible says that Solomon was the wisest man that ever lived (with, of course, the exception of Jesus Christ). That he "turned bad" later in his life is also a fact.

Right Divider said:

So... a nation with no assets whatsoever is ~40 trillion dollars wealthier than the USA.
(and YES, I understand that wealth is not just cash assets).

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Yes. By far. No comparison. 70% of our debt is owed to the Federal Reserve and to U.S. citizens or domestic entities.

Right Divider said:

Solomon's net worth is estimated to be 2-2.5 trillion dollars (in today's dollar, ref: Google Gemini).

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Speculative.

According to 1 Kings 10:14, Solomon received 666 talents of gold annually. That's roughly 50,000 pounds or 800,000 ounces, which would amount to over $1.8 billion per year at current gold prices. This figure does not include the wealth he gained through trade, taxation, tribute from other nations, or the material assets of his kingdom. His throne and palace were overlaid with gold, etc. When you consider all of that, yes, I suppose it is possible that he may have been a trillionaire but only as the king of a nation. It was most Israel's (Judah's) wealth, not his person fortune that he earned by running a business that provided goods and services to customers. Solomon did, however, have functional ownership of it all because he was king and his word was law, etc. So the trillionaire label works as a reflection of the total wealth under his control but not in the sense that we would think of a trillionaire today.

Right Divider said:

Documentation please (i.e., wealth by governmental force).

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Other nations paid Solomon tribute because he was powerful, wise, influential, and strategically vital. Tribute was a way to buy peace, secure trade, show honor, fulfill obligations from previous subjugation, etc, etc, etc. Solomon’s gold came from a mix of tribute, trade, naval expeditions, gifts, and domestic wealth. His kingdom was the economic and political superpower of the region. It was David's conquests that got the ball rolling. When Solomon became king, the surrounding nations had already been subdued by David and were paying tribute, essentially buying peace during his reign. They knew Israel could dominate them militarily if provoked, so continuing to pay tribute was the cost of staying independent while avoiding conflict.

Right Divider said:

Who made such a claim?

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You certainly seemed to have been!

You seem to be saying that Solomon was richer than the U.S.A., which is BY FAR the wealthiest nation that has ever existed or that likely will ever exist prior to the 2nd coming of Christ. The American economy is a thousand times that of the Roman empire and ten times that of the British Empire at it's peak. We completely dwarf anything Solomon could have ever dreamed was even possible.

Right Divider said:

There were TWO sides of Solomon. The great one where he was a type of Christ and his later years where he was a type of anti-Christ.

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Quite so!

Right Divider said:

That's an opinion. Was Josiah wiser than Solomon?

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That's a different question and it would depend on which of the "two sides" of Solomon you're talking about. There's good reason to think that Solomon may have gone to Hell when he died. That doesn't seem to be the case with Josiah.

And it isn't merely an opinion. There's extremely strong biblical evidence for it.

Josiah began seeking God as a young boy, he restored the temple, he found the Book of the Law, and he instituted national reforms to comply with the Book of the Law. He remained faithful to the end of his life and ended very well indeed...

Right Divider said:

The Bible says that Solomon was the wisest man that ever lived (with, of course, the exception of Jesus Christ). That he "turned bad" later in his life is also a fact.

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There were several great men that served as king. Solomon excelled in certain ways, Josiah in others, David in yet others.

It seems clear that Josiah was the greatest king, followed by Hezekiah or Jehoshaphat probably and then by David. Solomon makes the top five but can by no means be considered the greatest king. He would have been the greatest! He was certainly on his way toward being that because God gave him such great wisdom, but he totally blew it and unless he repented, is probably in Hell right now.

Under no circumstances could Solomon be considered the greatest king to have ever lived if you consider his entire overall reign.

Clete said:

Yes. By far. No comparison. 70% of our debt is owed to the Federal Reserve and to U.S. citizens or domestic entities.

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So what are you saying? That this debt does not matter?

Clete said:

Under no circumstances could Solomon be considered the greatest king to have ever lived if you consider his entire overall reign.

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You went off the rail quite a bit. I never made the claim that "Solomon was the greatest king that Israel ever had".. It's your straw-man.

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that Israel had a greater proportion of the world's wealth at the time of Solomon's peak than the USA does today. And, indeed, I cannot prove it with receipts.

P.S. I was NOT comparing the absolute wealth of two vastly different times in human history.

Right Divider said:

So what are you saying? That this debt does not matter?

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What we our to the Fed certainly does not matter at all. The only reason it isn't wiped off the books is because of the way the market works. It would crash the bond market. But no one expects that portion (about 20%) of our national debt to ever get repaid.

The chunk that is owed domestically matters but it's money that sort of exists on both side of the ledger, depending on how you're analyzing the wealth of the nation.

The remaining 30% that we owe to other nations may or may not get repaid depending on whether we ever go to war with any of those nations.

Right Divider said:

You went off the rail quite a bit. I never made the claim that "Solomon was the greatest king that Israel ever had".. It's your straw-man.

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In that case, I don't know what it is we are even talking about. You can't possibly believe the Israel has ever been as great a nation of the United States has been for over a century.

Right Divider said:

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that Israel had a greater proportion of the world's wealth at the time of Solomon's peak than the USA does today. And, indeed, I cannot prove it with receipts.

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As a percentage of the whole? Well, I'm not sure that's a fair comparison because the pie has grown so much but okay, I can see that you're probably correct in that regard.

Right Divider said:

1Kgs 10:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:23) So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.​

​

P.S. I was NOT comparing the absolute wealth of two vastly different times in human history.

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It seems to me that the U.S. is very simply the greatest nation that the world has ever seen in terms of wealth, and world wide influence. Some might debate whether for the better or worse but there can be no debate about it's unprecedented combination of economic power, cultural reach, technological innovation, and military dominance, all of which have shaped the modern world more profoundly than any other single nation in history.

Agreed?

Clete said:

As a percentage of the whole? Well, I'm not sure that's a fair comparison because the pie has grown so much but okay, I can see that you're probably correct in that regard.

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That is exactly why I was talking about a fair comparison.
Comparing absolute wealth in the whole world THEN and NOW is NOT a fair comparison.

Clete said:

It seems to me that the U.S. is very simply the greatest nation that the world has ever seen in terms of wealth, and world wide influence. Some might debate whether for the better or worse but there can be no debate about it's unprecedented combination of economic power, cultural reach, technological innovation, and military dominance, all of which have shaped the modern world more profoundly than any other single nation in history.

Agreed?

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I see that you cannot understand the issue that I have. Thanks anyway Clete.