Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

[Bradley D]

I wonder how children who at a certain time are innocent become doomed to hell before they are born.

"your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil" (Deut 1:39).

 

[Right Divider]

re: sovereignty

R. C. Sproul insisted that if even one stray molecule of gas in deep space floats aimlessly and without God's direct direction at every point of its existence, then He is not fully in control of His universe, not sovereign, thus not God.

The real definition of sovereignty is about authority.
Their definition is "complete control".

 

[Arial]

No one here, as far as I can tell, believes that they are saved because of something they did.

Many say they are saved because of a choice they made. How is that not something they did. If they didn't make that choice, then according to them, the person and work would have done nothing for them.

What does the Bible say?

"I have set before you this day life and death, therefore choose life, that ye may live."

God is the one who determined the conditions that must be met for Him to save someone. Who are you to question them?

Yes, He set that choice before them. The choice was to follow the covenant conditions or to not follow the covenant conditions. If they followed them, He would bless them in every aspect of their life. Food, clothing, families, rain, life etc. If they didn't keep those conditions, He would curse them with all the curses He promised. They didn't and He did.

That is not the same thing as a person choosing to decide to believe in the person and work of Jesus of their own volition. (Though it is probably always going to look like that is what we did from our viewpoint. AND IT DOESN'T AFFECT SALVATION IF WE ARE UNABLE TO SEE IT ANY OTHER WAY!!) They did choose, but it was the work of God in them that brought them to that faith.

I am not questioning them.

 

[Arial]

Are you not glad we don't have to remain "sinners"?

Of course I am glad. Even more grateful to know that even though I will never reach perfection this side of heaven or the restoration of all things, that it is the righteousness of Christ, who died and rose again for me, through which God views me. I still live in this fallen world. Am still a fallen person. I will slip up sometimes, recognize my sin and repent of the way that I have brought shame on the name of God. It is for this that the Holy Spirit has sealed (we bear the seal of the King, we are His) the believer in His righteousness. He paid the penalty for those sins. They do not condemn me anymore.

 

[Idolater]

The real definition of sovereignty is about authority.
Their definition is "complete control".

There is no danger for us in God our Father being in complete control though.

 

[Arial]

They have a completely false definition of "sovereignty".

Last I checked sovereignty had one meaning, though different applications to something. Sovereignty in the realm of humans is limited by institutions. A king and his kingdom, parents over children etc. But all these are subject to God's sovereignty over all His creation and His sovereignty is limited by no thing and no one.

What does it mean to you, since your saying that belief is false does not make it false? A person would need to know what is false about it.

 

[Arial]

Did God not determine that they be born that way? Born in Adam?

He determined that is the way it would go in that He made it possible and already had His plan of redemption in play. But it was still Adam who did it. He had actual totally free will. That is how He was created. He used that free will to sin against God, and now no one has that same free will that Adam and Eve had. Adam being what is called the federal head of all humanity, the first man, was actually also a part of God's redemptive plan. Now we see the second Adam, Jesus, born of woman, begot of God, so without that inclination towards sin. All who are in Him through faith (the federal Head of all who believe) have their sins atoned for by His life, death and resurrection.

 

[Right Divider]

There is no danger for us in God our Father being in complete control though.

God controls what He wants to control and gives many of His created beings the liberty to do was they will.

That is a completely foreign idea to a "true Calvinist".

 

[Idolater]

...He had actual totally free will. That is how He was created. He used that free will to sin against God, and now no one has that same free will that Adam and Eve had....

That's our condition of "Original Sin", the idea to sin comes from this condition, but we retain the power to thwart the ideas that seemingly 'pop' into our head. Adam didn't have such a thought 'pop' into his head, to eat the forbidden fruit. He consciously chose to do it. That's the type of sin he committed, turns out 'on our behalf'.

But Original Sin doesn't force someone to disbelieve in Jesus. We have the power to thwart that idea to not believe.

 

[Arial]

Not just Calvinists... I am a die-hard anti-Calvinist and have had Beloved57 on ignore for years but I accept that these two sentences are true or the word predestination has no meaning.

That is double predestination----which some Calvinist may believe, but it is not the teaching of Reformed theology as far as I know. It may exist some places and in some people.

God does not need to predestine anyone to hell. We are all headed that direction because we are sinners. We do not sin because we are predestined by God to sin. We sin because we want to. Because we like to. That is who we are.

 

[Idolater]

Like any true Catholic, you are totally focused on morals

Nope! I'm just not IGNORING morals! And when you don't ignore morals, you see that the whole New Testament is consistent with not ignoring them, Paul, Peter, MML&J, Revelation, etc.

And morals is where Calvinism and Reformed theology has fallen! And it CAN'T GET UP. Because in order to 'fix' your morals problem, you have to disable Calvinism.

If you are elect, there is nothing you can do to not be in heaven when you die.
If you are not elect, there is nothing you can do to not be in hell when you die.
You can't deny these sentences and be a Calvinist. It's because of your doctrine of election, which is wrong. The Body of Christ is elect. The "elect lady". It is up to us whether we'll be an individual member of the Church or not, but the Church is elect.

, thinking I guess, that morals trumps the person and work of Christ.

Not remotely.

That our good morals is what ultimately saves one.

No again. You're on a roll.

As to your presumption about what "Calvinists" believe, you are not qualified to speak of any of them, let alone all of them. You say you spent a great deal of time among the teachings of Reformed theology and found it to be false. You claim you understand the doctrines fully. And then you say things that show you do not---you have merely formed an opinion and repeat that opinion as fact. And I realize that you may have been given improperly stated doctrine, or a focus that was completely off base, human beings being what they are, but Christians are supposed to do their own homework and study. Rather than base our beliefs on how we desire God to be, who we want Him to be.

Everyone is destined for hell. God did not predestine that, though He knew it would happen and purposed it to work within His greater purpose. Which was for His glory and our recognition of that, our need of Him, and our recognition of that, and His saving and loving power towards His creation.

It is in His great mercy and love that He elects any to salvation. None of them can save themselves---not even with good morals. And if one believes and trusts only in the person and work of Jesus unto salvation, and if that is because of God's grace and mercy, in giving them to Christ through the necessary faith, that is a reason to rejoice in all humility and gratitude. Not a reason to groan that you can't escape this salvation.

But here we are, still giving into the same temptation that Adam and Eve were tempted by. "Yeah sure this being saved thing is wonderful. And sure, I needed God's help, but I did it myself for myself by being wise enough to choose Him. If I hadn't made that choice, Christ's death would have been in vain as far as I am concerned." No matter that God being God and the work of Jesus being the work of Jesus, and God saying that all His purposes will come to pass, and Jesus saying that He would lose none of those that God gave Him. Many still cry out with bitter insistence, "Christ's work amounted to nothing without my contribution!"

Just answer the question above about those two sentences and we'll talk.

 

[Arial]

This is impossible to avoid without massive doublethink, accepting that opposites can be true at the same time...that HE predetermined all things yet is not responsible for our being created evil by having us created in Adam's sinfulness.

We can only go by what we read in scripture when it comes to God. What He has chosen to reveal to us about Himself. It stands to reason that going by the things that He does tell us---things our mind can know the meaning of, but are beyond our capacity to truly see---like His being self existent and eternal to start with. So it isn't a matter of doublethink that says that God did not predestine anyone to be a sinner and at the same time know what Adam would do and determine before it ever happened that as Adam goes so go all. He had a plan and a purpose even before our creation. And these things that we speculate about or discard altogether that are beyond our understanding, are really, to put it in human terms, none of our business.

We know, because He tells us, that there is no evil in Him. No deceit in Him. That His ways are perfect. That He not only knows but determines the end from the beginning. We know, because He tells us, that in Adam all sin. In Christ is forgiveness. We know not all are saved. We know some are.

 

[Arial]

re: sovereignty

R. C. Sproul insisted that if even one stray molecule of gas in deep space floats aimlessly and without God's direct direction at every point of its existence, then He is not fully in control of His universe, not sovereign, thus not God.

The Bible does say that the Son created all things and in Him all things hold together. If God relaxed His governance over the universe for a split split split second, I suspect this world and everything in it would disappear.

 

[Arial]

Nope! I'm just not IGNORING morals!

Neither do I. Neither do Calvinists. I don't know on what basis you think they do.

And morals is where Calvinism and Reformed theology has fallen! And it CAN'T GET UP. Because in order to 'fix' your morals problem, you have to disable Calvinism.

How so? See right here you show you do not understand Calvinism.

If you are elect, there is nothing you can do to not be in heaven when you die.
If you are not elect, there is nothing you can do to not be in hell when you die.
You can't deny these sentences and be a Calvinist. It's because of your doctrine of election, which is wrong. The Body of Christ is elect. The "elect lady". It is up to us whether we'll be an individual member of the Church or not, but the Church is elect.

Election unto salvation does not come in a vacuum. No one is saved by osmosis. If a person believes the gospel when they hear it, it is because they are elected to salvation, according to Reformed theology. It is believing the gospel---the person and work of Jesus unto salvation--- that saves. Not election in and of itself. You misunderstand this theology from top to bottom. And if a person is placed in the Vine through this faith, they begin to bear the fruit (morals etc) of that Vine. If they are not bearing any fruit, they are not in the Vine.

Elect simply means chosen and the church is made up of the chosen. The Bible does not say the church is chosen and made up of people who are not chosen. And before you get stuck on we are forced into heaven or hell by an almighty God----remember that He said He turns no one away who comes to Him. He isn't playing sadistic games as Poly suggested in her OP.

Just answer the question above about those two sentences and we'll talk.

I answered it before, and I have answered it again.

 

[ttruscott]

That is double predestination----which some Calvinist may believe, but it is not the teaching of Reformed theology as far as I know. It may exist some places and in some people.

Yes, I believe this represents their doctrine also... Those who deny this obvious implication are deep in doublethink fueled by the cognitive dissonance the doctrine of double predestination creates in them, a workable reconciliation only if you don't actually dig into the implications too deely.

I resolve it by accepting predestination to heaven or hell, salvation or no salvation from sin, as GOD's response to creation's free will choices to put their faith in HIM as our GOD and saviour or to eternally rebel against HIM as a liar and a false god, prior to election or non-election.

 

[Arial]

God controls what He wants to control and gives many of His created beings the liberty to do was they will.

But only God controls where and when liberty is given and when it is taken away----and it will all still serve His purposes which cannot be thwarted.

That is a completely foreign idea to a "true Calvinist".

Is it? See above.

 

[ttruscott]

God does not need to predestine anyone to hell. We are all headed that direction because we are sinners. We do not sin because we are predestined by God to sin. We sin because we want to. Because we like to. That is who we are.

YES! I AGREE!!
OUR predestination occured AFTER our fall as a response to the fall even though it was told to all that predestination to hell was inevitable if any sinned the unforgivable sin...

Predestination created no sin whatsoever!!! It only warned of, predicted, the inevitable RESULT OF SIN as either salvation for those who had put their faith in HIM before they sinned or damnation for those who sinned the unforgivable sin of rejecting HIM as a liar and false god driven by a psychotic megalomania, and so never put their faith in HIM, Jn 3:18.

 

[Arial]

Yes, I believe this represents their doctrine also... Those who deny this obvious implication are deep in doublethink fueled by the cognitive dissonance the doctrine of double predestination creates in them, a workable reconciliation only if you don't actually dig into the implications too deely.

I resolve it by accepting predestination to heaven or hell, salvation or no salvation from sin, as GOD's response to creation's free will choices to put their faith in HIM as our GOD and saviour or to eternally rebel against HIM as a liar and a false god, prior to election or non-election.

I ,speaking as Reformed, but not speaking for them as I cannot speak for all of anything, am perfectly satisfied with accepting that we know what God has told us, and what He has not told us, we do not know. And He did not tell us and we do not know, because either we do not need to, or it is so far beyond our finiteness that it defies even the use of anthropomorphic words. It would blow our mind so to speak, possibly into oblivion.

 

[Clete]

That is not how my name is spelled.

My apologies!

I often have typos of this type in my early morning posts because of a shortage of time. It is never intentional.

You speak as someone who only knows how to use emotion and a stawman to reply to a post.

If that is the case, you ought to be able to refute them easily.

The Jews and Romans were predetermined by God to crucify Jesus, yet they were also entirely responsible for their own evil behavior.

Groups of people are predestined, individuals are not, and even groups can repent, in which case, God reacts to that repentance as appropriate. Any individual person involved in Christ's death could have chosen not to be, including anyone on the Jewish council, Pontius Pilot or any guard, centurion or any other specific individual. Had such occurred, God would have reacted in whatever manner was needed in order to secure His ultimate goal. Indeed, if the entire nation of Israel had seen the Light and repented and accepted Jesus as the Christ that He was, even then God could have still accomplished His goal without even needing a crucifix to do it. God could have had the High Priest perform the blood sacrifice on the alter, if need be. The point being that God predicted and even planned for but did not predestine the specifics, or at least not all of them, nor was it necessary for Him to do so in order to accomplish His goal.

If Poly is a Christian, she should know what her responsibilities are and what they are not, as clearly outlined for her in scripture.

According to your doctrine, Poly knows only and precisely what she was predestined to know by God before Poly ever existed.

That she prefers to obey a whim of her flesh rather than bow before the council of the Lord is on her.

You believe that Poly has the ability to act outside of what God predestined?

People who attack Reformed theology in the way that you do, because they never go below the surface of a thing, and do not care to, and simply have a poorly informed emotional reaction (and still think they know all about it) do not begin to understand the doctrines of God's sovereignty or man's responsibility.

There is one thing I know for certain. I know your doctrine better than you do. I've studied it in considerable depth for decades. I can quote original sources if you doubt that I am depicting Calvinist doctrine accurately. I have yet to have even one single Calvinist deny that they believe these things, even when I went looking for one who would!

And there we have it. Instead of listening to and obeying the council of the Lord, found in scripture, you double down on the atrocious sin, by setting yourself up as Judge, rather than Jesus Christ.

That's stupidity but it is also beside the point. Let's grant, for the sake of argument, that you're right and that I've "set myself up as judge, rather than Christ". We'll ignore the fact that the bible tells us to judge with righteous judgment and we'll ignore the fact that the bible teaches that we will judge the angels and we'll grant, again for the sake of argument, that not only have I set myself up as judge but that doing so is an "atrocious sin".

Do you believe then that I or Poly could have done otherwise or don't you actually believe that God predestined my every thought, word and deed before time began?

Prediction: Ariel will NOT answer that question directly.

Emphasis on the word professed. Many wolves in sheep's clothing hide within Christ's church. Many more, including pastors, don't even know how to recognize them.

That isn't the point, Ariel! The point is that you CANNOT tell! That man's own family had no idea that he was BTK! Do you think that Christ Lutheran Church in Park City Kansas is in the habit of putting people on their elder board who they have reason to believe are unbelievers (much less sociopathic serial killers)? There is zero doubt that Dennis Rader has made multiple public professions of faith in Christ, been baptized, taught Sunday School classes, quoted bible verses and told people that "God giveth and God taketh away!"

In short, Rader, in so far as his faith is concerned, would have looked just exactly the same as most any Christian you've ever met and while hindsight is 20/20 and its easy now to know he was a wolf in sheep's clothing, you could not have told that prior to February 25, 2005 when he was arrested for having murdered at least ten people.

One last question...

Did God predestine Dennis Rader to rape that eleven year old girl and hang her from a plumbing pipe in her basement?

Clete

 

[ttruscott]

The Body of Christ is elect. The "elect lady". It is up to us whether we'll be an individual member of the Church or not, but the Church is elect.

I don't read it this way at all .

ImCo,
2Jn 1:1 does not restrict the word elect to the lady church just by using it that way.... The church is elect because it is made up of elect persons, not the other way around. The church is reprobate when it is made up of reprobate goats, not sheep.