ECT Universalism?

[Jerry Shugart]

If this verse is not indicating that the free gift comes unto all men then what is it saying?:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).​

Thanks!

 

[SabathMoon]

If this verse is not indicating that the free gift comes unto all men then what is it saying?:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).​

Thanks!

It indicates Israel and the church pretemple destruction was as lucky as Enoch.

 

[Danoh]

Unto all, yes.

But upon all them that believe...

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Note the end of the passage you cited...

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Unto justification of life?

In other words, the free gift that has come upon all men is toward the unto justification of life that those who believe are then made the recipients of.

Exactly what Paul started that very chapter with...

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom. 14:5; in memory of Rom. 5:6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In other words, the free gift that has come upon all men is toward the unto justification of life that those who believe are then made the recipients of.

As usual, I can't make heads or tails out of your posts!

 

[Danoh]

As usual, I can't make heads or tails out of your posts!

Neither can I - and I wrote it :chuckle:

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8

 

[glorydaz]

If this verse is not indicating that the free gift comes unto all men then what is it saying?:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).​

Thanks!

I think Paul made it clear in Romans 4 that justification came through faith, and he was still talking about Jews and Gentiles when he spoke of all men. Whether Jew or Gentile, the free gift and justification of life is accessed through faith. Paul never left that topic.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.​

 

[SabathMoon]

5:18 Ἄρα οὖν ὡς δι᾽ ἑνὸς παραπτώματος εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους εἰς κατάκριμα οὕτως καὶ δι᾽ ἑνὸς δικαιώματος εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους εἰς δικαίωσιν ζωῆς

Notice gift isn't in the Greek. I will [not] dissect it otherwise for you.

 

[glorydaz]

5:18 Ἄρα οὖν ὡς δι᾽ ἑνὸς παραπτώματος εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους εἰς κατάκριμα οὕτως καὶ δι᾽ ἑνὸς δικαιώματος εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους εἰς δικαίωσιν ζωῆς

Notice gift isn't in the Greek. I will [not] dissect it otherwise for you.

Will or will not? Is this a multiple choice?

 

[SabathMoon]

The square braces mean I forgot the word in my first post.

 

[Danoh]

5:18 Ἄρα οὖν ὡς δι᾽ ἑνὸς παραπτώματος εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους εἰς κατάκριμα οὕτως καὶ δι᾽ ἑνὸς δικαιώματος εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους εἰς δικαίωσιν ζωῆς

Notice gift isn't in the Greek. I will [not] dissect it otherwise for you.

What are ya blabbing on about - the "free" implies the gift - Greek word, or no Greek word - as does the doctrine in Paul's writings (said free gift is based on, and) that actually decides what one Greek word here and there or, not, is actually neverthess actually referring to. :doh: :chuckle:

As in this here - the word "gifts" is not in the Greek, but the doctrine Paul goes into makes it obvious that those gifts (plural) there, are xactly what he is going on about...

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

The word "gifts" there, is not in the Greek, but they are exactly what Paul is going on about.

12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

And so on...

By the way, what is the significance of the name under which you post?

Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[Danoh]

The square braces mean I forgot the word in my first post.

Or you could have opted for using that as a sort of a "hint, hint."

But you'd still be off. :chuckle:

But Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I think Paul made it clear in Romans 4 that justification came through faith, and he was still talking about Jews and Gentiles when he spoke of all men.

So what was he speaking of when he talked of "many" in the same discourse?:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As in this here - the word "gifts" is not in the Greek, but the doctrine Paul goes into makes it obvious that those gifts (plural) there, are xactly what he is going on about...

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

The word "gifts" there, is not in the Greek, but they are exactly what Paul is going on about.

12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

And so on...

If you look at the context the "gift" in question is about justification and therefore the reference must be in regard to the "gift of eternal life" (Ro.6:23).

 

[glorydaz]

So what was he speaking of when he talked of "many" in the same discourse?:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).​

Many from both Jews and Gentiles. :idunno:

 

[Danoh]

So what was he speaking of when he talked of "many" in the same discourse?:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).​

Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.

In short, word study the VARIOUS uses of the word "many" throughout the Scripture.

The same is the case even with...a word as simple as the word "all."

Rom. 14:5 in memory of Rom. 5:6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[Danoh]

If you look at the context the "gift" in question is about justification and therefore the reference must be in regard to the "gift of eternal life" (Ro.6:23).

Depends on "the context" one CONCLUDES one is reading a thing in.

In Romans 6:23 Paul brings up the eternal life concept he has already made obvious is the Believer's ETERNAL possession even before he went into Romans 6, only because in Romans 6, he is addressing the issue that because the Believer has this eternal life, he has no business continuing in sin.

Why?

Because he has now been given the very enablement he had not previously had back when, in contrast to this ETERNAL life he now has, he had instead been in the best that his flesh could ever hope to produce - his remaining dead in the sins and trespasses of his flesh.

This is exactly what the anti-osas-ers simply cannot grasp due to their running with the "treadmill" conclusions of their crystal clear obvious fleshly mind, or flesh based perspective - which is why they ever appear to be talking about the effort they have concluded one ever has to be forever bringing to the table they have set up right under the FINISHED work of the Cross, like some child playing "store" via a lemonade stand.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

But the Lord is asserting through Paul that only ETERNAL life can ever hope to empower in and thus is able to produce in the Believer, the fruits of righteousness that Paul is ever going on about.

Paul is talking here about a generator, if you will, one that is EVER ETERNALLY able to energize the required power IN the Believer not only ETERNALLY, but in the HERE AND NOW.

He really is talking about a NEW species of Humanity in all that: A NEW Creature ALTOGETHER.

We're talking here the very power now resident IN the Believer that spoke creation itself into existence.

The very power that parted that Red Sea.

The very power that ever holds this planet suspended in the midst of nothing.

The very power by which the Lord Himself rose from the dead.

Now THAT is SOME gift.

And THAT is what Romans 6 is talking about and WHY he references its ORIGIN both at the beginning and again, at the end of that chapter.

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Depends on "the context" one CONCLUDES one is reading a thing in.

So when Paul speaks of a free gift which is in regard to justification do you still deny that the gift in question is the gift of eternal life?:

"And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification" (Ro.5:16).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Many from both Jews and Gentiles.

Then when Paul uses the word "all" he is speaking of "all" of the Jews and Gentiles?

 

[DAN P]

If this verse is not indicating that the free gift comes unto all men then what is it saying?:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).​

Thanks!

Hi and anyone would like to prove UNIVERSALISM they would have used Col 1:20 , where the KJV says , "and by Him to RECONCILE all things unto Himself ".

But the problem is that the KJV left out the Greek ARTICLE ( THE ) and SHOULD READ , and by Him to completely change THE / TA , ALL THINGS / PANTA !!

This Greek word TA / THE changes the reading and it means THE ALL THINGS and it means m THE ALL THINGS of the Body of Christ !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

So when Paul speaks of a free gift which is in regard to justification do you still deny that the gift in question is the gift of eternal life?:

"And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification" (Ro.5:16).​

I started all that in my prior reply to you, with the words "it depends on the context that is read in..."

You then came along and read YOUR context INTO what I said :chuckle:

The gift of eternal life is settled prior to Romans 6.

Romans 6 then proceeds to build on said gift (eternal life), various details concerning the mechanics of its intended enablement.

This here is based on the gift of eternal life the Believer already has by the time Paul goes into all this...

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

That passage there, is in the sense of - "Does the fact that all I, Paul, have just laid out prior to Romans 6, does the fact that you have been given said eternal life mean then that you should continue living the way you used to back when grace abounded - back when you were yet a sinner?"

Answer?

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Paul then goes into what this spiritual baptism into or spiritual identification with, the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection in the newness of His life with Him is meant to enable...our being able to walk in our newness of life in Him, with Him.

6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

And so on.

So that by the end of Romans 6, when he says this....

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Though it is obvious prior to Romans 6 that the gift of eternal life that we have been freely given by His grace is now our present and eternal possession, what Paul is actually addressing is not that, for that was settled prior to Romans 6.

What he is actually addressing (that is based on the fact of this gift of eternal life that we now have as our eternal possession) is this...verse 26 is what he is addressing, based in that...

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

He is actually addressing this...

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

He is actually addressing how not only that just because we now have the gift of eternal life, that does not mean we can live any way we feel like living, but also, how that this gift of etetnal life that we now have eternally, is able to enable us to now be these "servants to God," who now "have...fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."

In other words, we can now produce not only fruit unto holiness, because we have eternal life, but fruit that will last forever - fruit that will follow us into Glory one day!

This is why I ended my prior post to you on all this with my rejoicing in all these glorious truths so wonderously intertwined with one another, within this Amazing Grace - indeed! Amen!

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In other words - you have eternal life - so live like you do - bear its intended fruit..