ECT The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Jerry Shugart]

It is not difficult to prove that the catching up living saints will happen prior to the great tribulation because the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that the rapture can happen at any time. That rules out the idea that the appearance of the Lord Jesus mentioned at Matthew 24:30 is when the saints will be raptured because before that appearance can happen certain things must precede that appearance, such as the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (Mt.24:15).

Since the appearance of the Lord mentioned at Matthew 24:30 cannot happen until the abomination of desolations stands in the holy place then that appearance cannot happen at any time so it is not the same appearing mentioned here:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).​

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Paul Sadler, past President of the Berean Bible Society, says the following about the events which will happen when the Lord Jesus returns at the rapture:

"According to Paul's gospel the Rapture is 'imminent,' that is, it could take place at any moment. There are no signs, times, or seasons that will precede this glorious event" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, "The Present Obsession With the Anti-Christ," The Berean Searchlight, June, 1999, 7).

Those who received the Hebrew epistles were also taught that the Lord's appearing could happen at any moment, as witnessed by the words of James here:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

We also know that only members of the Body of Christ will take part in the rapture. Paul Sadler wrote:

"The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).​

From all of this we can understand that those who originally received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and therefore were indeed members of the Body of Christ.

This completely destroys the mistaken view in the Neo-MAD community where it is taught that those who received the Hebrew epistles were not members of the Body of Christ.

Now we will see if there is even one of those in the Neo-MAD camp who will tell us why we shouldn't believe that both the first century Gentile believers and the first century Jewish believers were expecting an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and therefore both groups were members of the Body of Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where are all those who belong to the Neo-MAD community?

Will they finally admit that they are wrong when they teach that those who originally received the Hebrew epistles are not members of the Body of Christ?

Or will they just continue in their unbelief and just ignore the facts which I have presented?

 

[Tambora]

Where are all those who belong to the Neo-MAD community?

:down:

 

[Interplanner]

It is not difficult to prove that the catching up living saints will happen prior to the great tribulation because the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that the rapture can happen at any time. That rules out the idea that the appearance of the Lord Jesus mentioned at Matthew 24:30 is when the saints will be raptured because before that appearance can happen certain things must precede that appearance, such as the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (Mt.24:15).

Since the appearance of the Lord mentioned at Matthew 24:30 cannot happen until the abomination of desolations stands in the holy place then that appearance cannot happen at any time so it is not the same appearing mentioned here:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).​

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Paul Sadler, past President of the Berean Bible Society, says the following about the events which will happen when the Lord Jesus returns at the rapture:

"According to Paul's gospel the Rapture is 'imminent,' that is, it could take place at any moment. There are no signs, times, or seasons that will precede this glorious event" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, "The Present Obsession With the Anti-Christ," The Berean Searchlight, June, 1999, 7).

Those who received the Hebrew epistles were also taught that the Lord's appearing could happen at any moment, as witnessed by the words of James here:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

We also know that only members of the Body of Christ will take part in the rapture. Paul Sadler wrote:

"The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).​

From all of this we can understand that those who originally received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and therefore were indeed members of the Body of Christ.

This completely destroys the mistaken view in the Neo-MAD community where it is taught that those who received the Hebrew epistles were not members of the Body of Christ.

Now we will see if there is even one of those in the Neo-MAD camp who will tell us why we shouldn't believe that both the first century Gentile believers and the first century Jewish believers were expecting an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and therefore both groups were members of the Body of Christ.

All NT eschatology falls apart when it does not distinguish the 1st century Judean material from the world wide. The return was expected 'right after' the DofJ, but this was not locked. Only the Father knew and He delayed.

In Lattourrette's history, you'll find that the apostles who lived through the time of horrendous turmoil in Judea did not expect anything like that to repeat in the future, and simply believed that they should continue to spread the message. Page 44.

To be honest about the 'rapture' we must see that it was only referred to in reference to that turmoil happening. There are plenty of descriptions of the return that don't "need" a rapture. In Rev 21, in the last conflict of all believers with the Enemy, the Enemy is suddenly destroyed and the NHNE is made. Does that "need" a rapture? It happens to quick to matter.

The topic is a very misguided interest, and the believers back in Judea in that event were told to leave the city when the noose tightened around the city. There was even an interruption in the siege that allowed for many to escape.

The AofD is the final anti-leader of Judaism standing and attempting to lead the nation into waiting for God to destroy the legions that had come against it. It was futile.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

:down:

It is funny that those in the Neo-MAD camp consider themselves experts about when the present dispensation began but they remain strangely silent when it comes to discussing the end of the present dispensation and that will happen at the rapture.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

To be honest about the 'rapture' we must see that it was only referred to in reference to that turmoil happening.

If you want to be honest about the rapture you must not deny the fact that it is said to be imminent.

Why don't you address that fact?

 

[john w]

Where are all those who belong to the Neo-MAD community?

Let me guess: Laughing at a confused old man, bible blender "saint" Nicky(John 3), a sower of discord amongst the brethren, an admitted humanist, bible corrector/agnostic/mystic, and Replacement "Theology" proponent, and now, we discover, a Full Preterist(and I can prove this recent gem, discovery, by his own words/argument).

And he is wondering why his duplicate "threads," which he starts, only to "prove" that he is right, having an unteachable "spirit," not to learn from others, not to honestly engage in persuasion/disputing, not to come to veracity, not to edify others, are largely ignored by TOL, as there is tumbleweed rolling through his threads. He can't be this stupid. Perhaps, like his fellow droid Pate, dementia is upon him? Nah...he's just stupid.

 

[john w]

If you want to be honest about the rapture you must not deny the fact that it is said to be imminent.

Why don't you address that fact?

Add that "If you want to be honest" to his bag of tricks.


Translated: If you want to be honest, you must agree with me, Nicky Shugart, on everything that I assert, and YOU MUST NOT DENY IT!!!!

Listen to Nicky, TOL audience. Do not deny what he says.

 

[Tambora]

It is funny that those in the Neo-MAD camp consider themselves experts about when the present dispensation began but they remain strangely silent when it comes to discussing the end of the present dispensation and that will happen at the rapture.

I don't know of hardly any of the MADs here that will not and have not discussed this extensively with reasonable people that want to study.
But when you start a thread with an OP that is basically picking a fight just to put down and insult others, then I don't blame them for not wanting to discuss with you.
Maybe you can get Danoh to join this thread so you two can just holler hybrid neo-MAD at each other till the cows come home.

You used to have some threads that were gratifying to explore and discuss viewpoints.
But lately, most of your threads are just an aggressive grouch fest and unpleasant.
That's the reason I have not joined in most of your discussions lately.
But I still look forward to seeing you post again as you have in the past, with a civil and objective study for the purpose of actually studying and not just pounding on the podium, as I know you can.
But's that's just me, others can speak for themselves if they wish.

The only reason I have not joined in your discussions lately is not because I have no viewpoint, but because of your attitude.
I'm waiting for your grouchy mood to pass so we can get back to studying.
So, kick a dog, take a nap, or blow into a paper bag or something to get it out of your system.
Anything to get you back on track and have a rational discussion.
Until then, be well, Jerry.

Over and out till then.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But when you start a thread with an OP that is basically picking a fight just to put down and insult others...

I am trying to get a response on the subject of my thread and you are using it as an occasion to insult me.

Why have you not even attempted to address the subject of this thread?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Add that "If you want to be honest" to his bag of tricks.

Among your bags of tricks is to come on a thread and instead of addressing the subject of the thread you just want to attack those who do not agree with your silly ideas.

 

[Tambora]

I am trying to get a response on the subject of my thread and you are using it as an occasion to insult me.

Why have you not even attempted to address the subject of this thread?

I just told you why.
You are the one that started this thread with an insulting OP.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I just told you why.
You are the one that started this thread with an insulting OP.

Of course it is going to be an insult to you since it exposes your errors.

 

[Tambora]

Of course it is going to be an insult to you since it exposes your errors.

What errors would that be, Jerry?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What errors would that be, Jerry?

The error that the Twelve were not members of the Body of Christ.

 

[Tambora]

The error that the Twelve were not members of the Body of Christ.

Then who is the believing remnant of Israel?

 

[john w]

Among your bags of tricks is to come on a thread and instead of addressing the subject of the thread you just want to attack those who do not agree with your silly ideas.

Forgot about that one, from your bag of tricks!!! Please give us the "slam dunk" closer, a flavor similar to "want to attack...."-"You are assasinating the messenger!!!!..."


Please teach us, Nicky...Please?

And say "silly ideas" for the 456th time this year...Please?

"If you want to be honest about" your bag of tricks, "you must not deny the fact that" people laugh at them.

There. I just destroyed your silly ideas with one sentence, and won!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Then who is the believing remnant of Israel?

Here we read about the believing remnant of Israel:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

The middle wall of partition has been broken down and the remnant has been reconciled unto God in one Body, the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are assasinating the messenger!!!!..."

It is spelled "A S S A S S I N A T I N G," sonny boy.

 

[john w]

It is spelled "A S S A S S I N A T I N G," sonny boy.

There you go. You start a thread, and instead of addressing the subject of the thread, which is being ignored, to stir up interest in another one of your redundant, dead "threads," you just want to attack those who do not agree with your silly ideas, and do not agree with your bag of tricks sophistry, and are engaging in assassination attempts!

How did I do, Reppy, Full Preterist, "it all says the same thing" John 3 Nicky?