Sorry, But Preachers of Arminianism Teach Against What Christ Taught

[Samie]

Here's Article 1 of the Five Articles of Remonstrance:

Article I — That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John iii. 36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Highlighted in red above are phrases that INDIRECTLY point to the fact that people are born in sin and therefore born APART from Christ (above quote, alienate from Christ).

Christ said: Apart from Me, you can do NOTHING

Arminian Preachers say: Apart from Christ, you can do SOMETHING to be in Him, you can believe.

IF what Arminian preachers say is correct, then Christ is wrong, an OBVIOUSLY wrong conclusion because Christ cannot be wrong.

Instead of born in sin, people are born in Christ. How?

On that same day Adam sinned, God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the beginning of time, before the foundation of the world (2 Tim 1:8-10) and saved Adam through Christ (Acts 4:12), reinstating him to his pre-fall spiritual status, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). That gracious saving act was manifested and revealed in the life, death, resurrection and heavenly ministry of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ, and so are NOT apart from Him, and therefore can do SOMETHING. They can believe, repent, etc.

Any objection from the Arminians? Post your objections and I'll try my best to address them through Scriptures.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

The Calvinists teach that this so-called "universal corruption of mankind" is conveyed to all men by "ordinary generation."

If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing the very things which He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

Sir Robert Anderson says, "This theology obviously impugns the righteousness of God in punishing men for their sins. In fact, it represents Him as a tyrant who punishes the lame for limping and the blind for losing their way" (Anderson, Misundersood Texts of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1991], 75).

 

[Samie]

Both Arminianism and Calvinism teach that people are born dead in sin. And majority of Christians believed in this doctrine, thinking perhaps it is what Scriptures say and in the absence of a better choice.

In this forum, a better choice is presented. And Scriptural, too. Instead of born in sin, people are born in Christ, all because God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the beginning of time when He saved Adam through Christ that same day Adam fell into sin, and reinstated him to his pre-fall spiritual status, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.

And I guess this truth is beginning to sink into the hearts of many in this forum, as attested to by the silence of debaters from the camps of Arminians and Calvinists.

 

[Nang]

Both Arminianism and Calvinism teach that people are born dead in sin. And majority of Christians believed in this doctrine, thinking perhaps it is what Scriptures say and in the absence of a better choice.

This belief is the doctrine of "Total Depravity" which is the result of the original sin of Adam. Adam's sin brought a death sentence upon all his offspring. Physical death is representative of spiritual death; experienced by all human beings. This Total Depravity is the cause of all sin, fear of death, and bondage to the devil. It was to redeem and save sinners from this condition, that God sent His Son into the world.

In this forum, a better choice is presented.

No. In this forum, different and strange gospels are being presented. The true Gospel of Jesus Christ cannot be proclaimed without the teaching of Total Depravity. Sinners need to hear why they need God's grace and what they need to be saved from!

And Scriptural, too. Instead of born in sin, people are born in Christ, all because God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the beginning of time when He saved Adam through Christ that same day Adam fell into sin, and reinstated him to his pre-fall spiritual status, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.

And I guess this truth is beginning to sink into the hearts of many in this forum, as attested to by the silence of debaters from the camps of Arminians and Calvinists.

None of the above is scriptural at all . . .

 

[Samie]

None of the above is scriptural at all . . .

Can you do it this time with Scriptures, as I did with your doctrine of people are born dead in sin?

Here again, for the nth time:

Your doctrine says: people are born dead in sin then made alive.

Scriptures say: Romans 7:9 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I die

KJV Galatians 2:19-20 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Your sequence of events is opposite to that of Scriptures.

Any rebuttal against my objection?

 

[Samie]

This belief is the doctrine of "Total Depravity" which is the result of the original sin of Adam. Adam's sin brought a death sentence upon all his offspring. Physical death is representative of spiritual death; experienced by all human beings. This Total Depravity is the cause of all sin, fear of death, and bondage to the devil. It was to redeem and save sinners from this condition, that God sent His Son into the world.

So, are you saying the Father did not save His son Adam right on that same day he fell into sin? Please answer.

My answer to this same question is in the OP, as you and everyone else can see, with Scriptural basis.

 

[Samie]

No. In this forum, different and strange gospels are being presented. The true Gospel of Jesus Christ cannot be proclaimed without the teaching of Total Depravity.

No. The teaching of Jesus is against the teaching of both Arminians and Calvinists that people are born dead in sin. Instead, He taught that people start out in life NOT lost. He taught this in the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son. see Luke 15.

Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was with his father.

So with us sinners. We start out in life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ!

Any rebuttal to my objection above?

 

[Nang]

Can you do it this time with Scriptures, as I did with your doctrine of people are born dead in sin?

Here again, for the nth time:

Your doctrine says: people are born dead in sin then made alive.

Scriptures say: Romans 7:9 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I die

KJV Galatians 2:19-20 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Your sequence of events is opposite to that of Scriptures.

Any rebuttal against my objection?

You have taken Romans 7:9 out of context, to misapply it to your wrong presupposition.

This teaching applies to Christians; not to humanity at large. The doctrine of Total Depravity (sinfulness according to God's Law) is the beginning of the Gospel message. Until sinners are convicted of their sins according to God's Law, there can be no repentance nor faith. Hearing the this very teaching the Law and acknowledging the condition of one's sinful heart, witnesses the reality of new spiritual life and Godly faith.

Thus, Galatians 2:19-20 is the conclusion of the above. Paul describes the new spiritual life of the Christian believer, which is never experienced or known by humanity at large.

Your cherry-picking of verses is forced and thus your "sequential" theories are just plain wrong.

 

[Nang]

So, are you saying the Father did not save His son Adam right on that same day he fell into sin? Please answer.

God warned Adam that on "the day" that he disobeyed the command to not eat of the forbidden tree, Adam would "surely die." Genesis 2:17

There is no scriptural evidence, whatever, that God retracted or overruled this promise.

(Adam is not listed amongst the faithful souls from the O.T. in Hebrews Chapter 11. If Adam was never directly attributed as being faithful, we have no grounds to say whether God forgave him or not.)

 

[Samie]

You have taken Romans 7:9 out of context, to misapply it to your wrong presupposition.

This teaching applies to Christians; not to humanity at large.

Then what does Paul mean when he said he was alive then died. What comes first, being alive first then died, as the verse EXPLICITLY says, or dead first then alive as you claim based on Calvinism?

You were saying it applies to Christians, not to humanity at large, so let's apply it. The verse says alive first then died. Are you NOW saying Christians are born spiritually alive as the verse says and NOT dead in sin as Calvinism teaches? Please answer me so I will EXACTLY know your take on the verse I used, before moving on to other issues raised in your post.

 

[Tambora]

Christ said: Apart from Me, you can do NOTHING

Arminian Preachers say: Apart from Christ, you can do SOMETHING to be in Him, you can believe.

They are not saying that you cannot make a choice apart from Christ.

If you could do NOTHING (in the sense you are describing) then no one could choose to reject Christ apart from Christ.

 

[Samie]

They are not saying that you cannot make a choice apart from Christ.

That's precisely why I'm saying they are contradicting themselves. While believing Christ saying people can do NOTHING apart from Him, yet they require those they consider as yet apart from Christ to do SOMETHING - the act of CHOOSING, so they can be in Him.

If you could do NOTHING (in the sense you are describing) then no one could choose to reject Christ apart from Christ.

That's why they can do the act of REJECTING because they are in Christ our Strength for doing things (Phil 4:13), otherwise they can do NOTHING. Instead of using His strength to RECEIVE Him, they use His strength to REJECT Him. And these REJECTERS, Christ will blot out from the book of life, effectively dismembering them from being part of His Body, expelled from membership in the family of God.