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Addendum: a free will must have the ability to choose both righteousness and sinfulness. Never choosing sin is not a lack of free will but an embodiment of the will's ability to choose righteousness. Sinners cannot choose righteousness without grace so they have no free will. But to become a...

ImCo: Free will is NOT measured by the ability to chose because those enslaved by, addicted to, besotted with, evil desires still chose which sins to indulge in and how to indulge them. In fact since GOD cannot sin nor create sinners, the fact that sin and evil has come into HIS creation is...

The fall happened before the foundation of the world... The serpent arrived in the garden already evil with evil intent....

It is this way because only sinners are born into mankind, some as the sinful but good (elect) seed, the sinful people of the kingdom, (Matt 13:36:39) the sheep of Christ by faith who have gone astray into sin but are then returned to Him: 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but...

Thank you... ...I use the word predestined to refer to the fact that I believe that we were so destined before, pre, the existence of the physical universe, ie, the foundation of the world. If someone was destined to hell after they sinned but before the foundation of the world, then to speak...

But HE told us of the Divine messiah, and that the Messiah would suffer and die and HIS people got it not at all - not because it was beyond their ability but because it did not conform to what they saw through their narrow knothole. The same thing is happening again as the prophecies of Daniel...

But doesn't the majority of so called orthodoxy accept that we are sinners by osmosis from Adam???

HE is light and no dark is in HIM, ie, there is no way at all that HE can be responsible for the sins of anyone or for their choosing sin such as being created, born or conceived, into someone else's sinfulness. The mind boggles at this blasphemy, sigh.

I don't read it this way at all . ImCo, 2Jn 1:1 does not restrict the word elect to the lady church just by using it that way.... The church is elect because it is made up of elect persons, not the other way around. The church is reprobate when it is made up of reprobate goats, not sheep.

YES! I AGREE!! OUR predestination occured AFTER our fall as a response to the fall even though it was told to all that predestination to hell was inevitable if any sinned the unforgivable sin... Predestination created no sin whatsoever!!! It only warned of, predicted, the inevitable RESULT OF...

Yes, I believe this represents their doctrine also... Those who deny this obvious implication are deep in doublethink fueled by the cognitive dissonance the doctrine of double predestination creates in them, a workable reconciliation only if you don't actually dig into the implications too...

This is impossible to avoid without massive doublethink, accepting that opposites can be true at the same time...that HE predetermined all things yet is not responsible for our being created evil by having us created in Adam's sinfulness.

I agree. HIS reason is accepted by Calvinists as apparently not based upon any condition found in us to accept us or to reject us but to play this unfathomable card is unfathomable in itself giving the fact of HIS nature e benevolent, loving, righteous and just. Our salvation had to be outside...

Yes, this is the Calvinist mistake, knowing a little theology but nothing about HIS loving nature...believing sovereignty trumps love but it in fact must conform to love, righteousness and justice. Sovereignty does not mean that if HE chooses to do something it then conforms to HIS loving...

...which would tend to imply that their predetermined fate was based upon their free will choices and decisions and NOT without condition nor reason as Calvin suggested. They chose their eternal relationship with YHWH and HE chose their eternal fate as the perfect moral response to their free...

Not just Calvinists... I am a die-hard anti-Calvinist and have had Beloved57 on ignore for years but I accept that these two sentences are true or the word predestination has no meaning.

This question betrays a great gap in the understanding of GOD's love and the reason, ie, HIS purpose, the heavenly marriage, that HE created us to fulfill. It is as wrong as the level of misunderstanding that would suggest Satan is one of the Divine Persons of the trinity.

Ad hominem. Ad hominem. Ad hominem. Ignores content. Ad hominem. Misconstrues the content to apply t me when i asked if it applied to you...sigh. I do not think He is tricksie but you must if you think HE uses a metaphor to explain a metaphor. There is a song verse or two that describes...

My goodness... Rev 12: 9 And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. is all I need. 'to the earth' is clearly in the Greek. What are you on about?

People like me, eh? A line used to depersonalize people, to dehumanize them for political, racial and cultural reasons, putting the blame for your animosity on your victims. Where do you think Satan and his angels went or got to after being flung to earth? Especially in light of 2 Peter 2:4 For...