Mass Killer bought his rifles legally.

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
RD's giving you the boundary condition for any proposed solution Eider. You do know that? Recognize it? He's saying, "I don't know exactly what to do (or at least I'm not saying it right now) but I for a certainty know exactly what NOT to do," and you just aren't responding to that. And so why would he offer an answer to your question, when you're not acknowledging what he is saying?

RD's right to be saying what he's saying too. Murder victims have their rights robbed of them, that's for sure. And just as sure, is our human right to self-defense, which cannot be morally abrogated for any purpose, no matter how "obvious" a rights-depriving "solution" may appear to be.

We have a murder problem in America. For some reason, you all don't have quite the murder problem that we have. Ours pales in comparison to some other large countries, but it's notably bigger than most of our democratic allies, like the UK, Australia, NZ, and most if not all of western Europe. And Taiwan and Japan and South Korea.

So a solution, in order to be moral, must protect our rights, while addressing the murder problem. I would guess that we have a political situation right now that somehow is advantageous for murderers to roam free. Or, that we are somehow losing our ability to instruct children on morals. That could be the problem, if suicide is also considered a moral matter, because our suicide problem is twice as bad as our murder problem---about twice as many Americans are killed every year by their own hand, than are killed by someone else's.

With hard morals, like the prohibition of murder, our minds should never permit us to make that choice, never ever, not under any circumstances, and I'm afraid that for many people, they just haven't closed certain moral doors in their minds, and they need to.
In part, the reason other countries don't have the same high murder rates is because of the prevalent gun culture in America. That's why you don't tend to see mass shootings in the UK or Australia etc. You're not likely to get a Columbine or a Sandy Hook where guns aren't so readily available to most citizens including automatic weapons. In order to own a gun in the UK you'd need good reason for it. There seems to be some odd thinking on here that because we don't allow the average citizen to own a firearm it somehow means we don't allow self defence both in or outside of the home which is baffling as of course it's allowed. It's far more unlikely that someone over here is going to be breaking into a home or threatening a person at gunpoint is the difference. The gun culture isn't the only reason of course but it's a fair chunk of the reason why.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
In part, the reason other countries don't have the same high murder rates is because of the prevalent gun culture in America.
Not only is that unsubstantiated, it's simply untrue, based on all the world's data taken together. You don't have any evidence at all that shows prevalent guns or gun culture (which I admit that we do have here, I'm a member of that culture) turns into murders. None. If anything, taken all together, the more the guns, the fewer the murders---but that's not as precise as saying, there is simply zero relationship between the two.

iow, there's everywhere from basically zero guns (Japan for example; we can't include Monte Carlo because it's just a city that's also a country, and if we study cities that's a different ball of wax), to what we have here in America, almost five guns here for every four Americans. Civilian owned and controlled.

And the murder rate is basically the same through the whole range. It definitely does not rise with more guns, but it can't be said statistically to decline with more guns either, the slope or coefficient is calculated as slightly negative, but it's statistically insignificant, which means we don't reject the null hypothesis, which is that the coefficient between civilian-owned guns and murder, is zero. Worldwide, the murder rate depends upon something entirely different from how many civilians have guns.
That's why you don't tend to see mass shootings in the UK or Australia etc. You're not likely to get a Columbine or a Sandy Hook where guns aren't so readily available to most citizens including automatic weapons. In order to own a gun in the UK you'd need good reason for it.
I know. But we as a nation believe, and this is expressed in our Constitution, that it simply being a human right, is all the reason any of us need, and it is also, an indisputably good reason.
There seems to be some odd thinking on here that because we don't allow the average citizen to own a firearm it somehow means we don't allow self defence both in or outside of the home which is baffling as of course it's allowed.
Of course everybody believes in the right to self-defense, unless you're a murderer or a rapist or other violent criminal yourself. When your life is demanded of you, by either man or beast, you will exercise that human right, of course you will, everybody will, everybody does, and most everybody almost unquestionably accepts self-defense as justification for being violent yourself, up to and including lethal force against the bad guy.

But we recognize the difference between lip service and real teeth. Our Constitution purports to protect our human right to self-defense, with real teeth. You all, and all of our democratic allies, like Canada, pay it lip service, but all your teeth have fallen out, and you're only "gumming" the right, in your law.

Your preparation to defend yourself involves improvised weapons, because you're going to need a weapon, whether improvised or real, if you need to defend yourself. Americans by contrast, get a gun. Then we carry. Then we get another gun, or a better gun, and we carry. We prepare to shoot, if we need to protect ourselves.

We recognize the right to defend yourself, your family, your neighbors, and any other innocent person against attempted violent crime or anything else threatening life and limb, and we recognize that the lawful exercise of your right, involves weapons, if you're serious about defending yourself.
It's far more unlikely that someone over here is going to be breaking into a home or threatening a person at gunpoint is the difference.
It's also far more unlikely that you'll successfully defend yourself, all other things being equal, if your access to superlative weapons is restricted by your own government.
The gun culture isn't the only reason of course but it's a fair chunk of the reason why.
If a government restricts the sale of bubblegum severely, then of course, you're going to see a decrease in the bubblegum stuck under public benches and on public railings. But gum doesn't play much of a role in a typical successful self defense. But if it ever did, and if you had had some bubblegum, and because of that, you were able to save your family from a bear attack or something like that, then you'd too recognize the restriction on gum as directly trampling your human right to self-defense.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Not only is that unsubstantiated, it's simply untrue, based on all the world's data taken together. You don't have any evidence at all that shows prevalent guns or gun culture (which I admit that we do have here, I'm a member of that culture) turns into murders. None. If anything, taken all together, the more the guns, the fewer the murders---but that's not as precise as saying, there is simply zero relationship between the two.

iow, there's everywhere from basically zero guns (Japan for example; we can't include Monte Carlo because it's just a city that's also a country, and if we study cities that's a different ball of wax), to what we have here in America, almost five guns here for every four Americans. Civilian owned and controlled.

And the murder rate is basically the same through the whole range. It definitely does not rise with more guns, but it can't be said statistically to decline with more guns either, the slope or coefficient is calculated as slightly negative, but it's statistically insignificant, which means we don't reject the null hypothesis, which is that the coefficient between civilian-owned guns and murder, is zero. Worldwide, the murder rate depends upon something entirely different from how many civilians have guns.

I know. But we as a nation believe, and this is expressed in our Constitution, that it simply being a human right, is all the reason any of us need, and it is also, an indisputably good reason.

Of course everybody believes in the right to self-defense, unless you're a murderer or a rapist or other violent criminal yourself. When your life is demanded of you, by either man or beast, you will exercise that human right, of course you will, everybody will, everybody does, and most everybody almost unquestionably accepts self-defense as justification for being violent yourself, up to and including lethal force against the bad guy.

But we recognize the difference between lip service and real teeth. Our Constitution purports to protect our human right to self-defense, with real teeth. You all, and all of our democratic allies, like Canada, pay it lip service, but all your teeth have fallen out, and you're only "gumming" the right, in your law.

Your preparation to defend yourself involves improvised weapons, because you're going to need a weapon, whether improvised or real, if you need to defend yourself. Americans by contrast, get a gun. Then we carry. Then we get another gun, or a better gun, and we carry. We prepare to shoot, if we need to protect ourselves.

We recognize the right to defend yourself, your family, your neighbors, and any other innocent person against attempted violent crime or anything else threatening life and limb, and we recognize that the lawful exercise of your right, involves weapons, if you're serious about defending yourself.

It's also far more unlikely that you'll successfully defend yourself, all other things being equal, if your access to superlative weapons is restricted by your own government.

If a government restricts the sale of bubblegum severely, then of course, you're going to see a decrease in the bubblegum stuck under public benches and on public railings. But gum doesn't play much of a role in a typical successful self defense. But if it ever did, and if you had had some bubblegum, and because of that, you were able to save your family from a bear attack or something like that, then you'd too recognize the restriction on gum as directly trampling your human right to self-defense.
No, it's not untrue and your use of the line 'the more guns, the fewer the murders' only underlines your ignorance. Not interested in the rest of this tirade.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ

eider

Well-known member
Your "topic" was about guns.
A mentally ill person who previously has had a shotgun seized by police ... buying rifles legally at a later date, and going on to murder 7 people and injure 7 others. You don't seem to have too many ideas about preventing such situations in future, and so I wonder why he could not have purchased a machine gun, or a grenade launcher, or a....... after all, they are all arms that can be borne.

Do you think a convicted bank robber should be allowed to purchase rifles? Is that a greater or lesser risk, I wonder? Home defence?
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
A mentally ill person who previously has had a shotgun seized by police ... buying rifles legally at a later date, and going on to murder 7 people and injure 7 others.
He should have had a background check.
You don't seem to have too many ideas about preventing such situations in future, and so I wonder why he could not have purchased a machine gun, or a grenade launcher, or a....... after all, they are all arms that can be borne.
Some guns are so big you have to mount them on a trailer and tow them around. Others have to be carried by tanks, or helicopters, or jet airplanes. Plus it's just an objective fact: You never know when you'll need a belt-fed machine gun.
Do you think a convicted bank robber should be allowed to purchase rifles? Is that a greater or lesser risk, I wonder? Home defence?
Convicts have the right to defend themselves, the right's absolute and irrevocable.
 

eider

Well-known member
No, it's not untrue and your use of the line 'the more guns, the fewer the murders' only underlines your ignorance. Not interested in the rest of this tirade.
Of course, if 'more guns, fewer murders' was logical then why ban machine guns in the USA? And since the 5th Amendment mentions 'borne arms' rather than 'guns' then does this amazing logic extend to 'more arms, less murders'?
Imagine. Bazookas and mortars on the patio......

Whilst I was researching 'borne arms' I noticed that in most States there is little or no legislation to control the purchase or use of flamethrowers. And yet one needs a licence to carry out many trades. jobs and services. It's all strange.
 

eider

Well-known member
He should have had a background check.
So a mentally ill person should not be allowed to have a gun to defend his home?
Is that what you're suggesting?
What's the background check for?
Some guns are so big you have to mount them on a trailer and tow them around. Others have to be carried by tanks, or helicopters, or jet airplanes. Plus it's just an objective fact: You never know when you'll need a belt-fed machine gun.
The 2nd Amendment reads 'bear arms' ......... so I guess that if you can carry it, you should be able to have one. This isn't difficult.
So why are 'borne' mortars and grenade launchers and ground-air missiles banned?
Convicts have the right to defend themselves, the right's absolute and irrevocable.
Well why can't they buy a tommy gun?
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Of course, if 'more guns, fewer murders' was logical then why ban machine guns in the USA?
Not quite apples and oranges, but close. One is a question of quantity, and the other is a question of quality. Machine guns, just like all the other guns, do not cause murderers to murder. Nothing causes murder except murderers.
And since the 5th Amendment mentions 'borne arms' rather than 'guns'
Arms means guns. Arms meant guns. All manner of them too, apparently.
then does this amazing logic extend to 'more arms, less murders'?
Si vis pacem para bellum. iow, yes.
Imagine. Bazookas and mortars on the patio......

Whilst I was researching 'borne arms' I noticed that in most States there is little or no legislation to control the purchase or use of flamethrowers. And yet one needs a licence to carry out many trades. jobs and services. It's all strange.
It's strange to me that you all can't see the plain logic and reason in being familiar with and comfortable with and competent with ranged weaponry. I don't know what downside you see in having this aptitude. Why do you despise, neglect and treat it with contempt?
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
So a mentally ill person should not be allowed to have a gun to defend his home?
The right to self-defense, like the right against being murdered, raped, falsely imprisoned, is absolute.
Is that what you're suggesting?
What's the background check for?
Crim check.
The 2nd Amendment reads 'bear arms' ......... so I guess that if you can carry it, you should be able to have one. This isn't difficult.
That's what I used to think until it was pointed out to me by @ok doser that civilians uncontroversially owned battleships earlier on in our history. They could have laid waste to the buildings surrounding a harbor, if they were mass murderers.
So why are 'borne' mortars and grenade launchers and ground-air missiles banned?
It's a good question, and I don't know. And it's not because I don't know what various courts have ruled, or their reasoning. When courts rule on this matter, they do so arbitrarily, they improvise, there's no theory that clearly sets the edge of the absolute right to self-defense, which none of us deny exists, and it not seeming like a good idea for my neighbor to have surface-air guided missiles. So it's personal preference, cobbling together bits and pieces of a legal or moral theory, but it's obviously a house of cards reinforced with bubble gum. We need someone to do all this work, and I don't even know which talents the workers are going to need to have to do all this work.
Well why can't they buy a tommy gun?
I don't know why they shouldn't. In 1934 the first federal statute infringing the Second Amendment was enacted. If we hadn't have done that, we'd be buying Thompson submachine guns off the internet by now.
 

eider

Well-known member
The right to self-defense, like the right against being murdered, raped, falsely imprisoned, is absolute.
OK.
Crim check.
Hang on. What's the 'Crim check' for?
That's what I used to think until it was pointed out to me by @ok doser that civilians uncontroversially owned battleships earlier on in our history. They could have laid waste to the buildings surrounding a harbor, if they were mass murderers.
The 2nd Amendment reads 'to keep and bear arms'.
If you can carry it then it is borne.
It's a good question, and I don't know. And it's not because I don't know what various courts have ruled, or their reasoning. When courts rule on this matter, they do so arbitrarily, they improvise, there's no theory that clearly sets the edge of the absolute right to self-defense, which none of us deny exists, and it not seeming like a good idea for my neighbor to have surface-air guided missiles.
The 2nd Amendment is all about defence of States, and militia.
If you want to defend your home against them when they come at you then you might need to look skywards.
Or are you happy about Court rulings about these matters?

So it's personal preference, cobbling together bits and pieces of a legal or moral theory, but it's obviously a house of cards reinforced with bubble gum. We need someone to do all this work, and I don't even know which talents the workers are going to need to have to do all this work.
The 2nd Amendment was an Amendment to the Constitution.
Can Amendments be yet again amended?
If not then why have any bans against any 'borne arms' ever been imposed?
I don't know why they shouldn't. In 1934 the first federal statute infringing the Second Amendment was enacted. If we hadn't have done that, we'd be buying Thompson submachine guns off the internet by now.
Well if Americans don't agree with the 1934 legislation why don't they redact it?
And why in America are States carrying out criminal record checks on persons applying for guns and rifles?
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Show me how the 2nd Amendment meant 'guns' when it was not written as 'guns'.
Because tell me, please, what arms meant in 1789-1791. I want examples, of arms, in 1791, in America. All examples will be considered.

I'll start: guns, of all types.

Your turn.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Hang on. What's the 'Crim check' for?
What's it for where you live?
The 2nd Amendment reads 'to keep and bear arms'.
If you can carry it then it is borne.
Bearing arms is being armed. You can be armed with what's in your hand, strapped around your shoulder, in your backpack, in your car, mounted on your porch, towed by your tractor, all the ways to be armed is what bearing arms means. Taking up arms is synonymous with bearing arms, it means being armed.
The 2nd Amendment is all about defence of States, and militia.
If you want to defend your home against them when they come at you then you might need to look skywards.
Or are you happy about Court rulings about these matters?
Courts haven't yet provided the insight we need to solve this one. If this Democrat slight majority in Washington, fails to expand the Supreme Court beyond the current nine justices, I'm anticipating them taking up a Second Amendment case relatively soon (1-3 years), maybe they'll shed some light on it for us.

Incidentally our Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment implies the right to self-defense, so it's not uncontroversial to say that it's only about defense of States and militia. It's about States and militia, because it's really about the right to self-defense, is what the Court basically said.
The 2nd Amendment was an Amendment to the Constitution.
Can Amendments be yet again amended?
Sure.
If not then why have any bans against any 'borne arms' ever been imposed?

Well if Americans don't agree with the 1934 legislation why don't they redact it?
The gun culture in America is diverse, and currently, we're in the minority.
And why in America are States carrying out criminal record checks on persons applying for guns and rifles?
Why are you asking? Is it because it appears to plainly conflicts with our Constitution's Second Amendment? Because I think that too, but the Supreme Court has ruled at least in passing that there exists regulations, red tape, and other rigmarole that do not violate the Constitution when it comes to accessing guns /arms, even though it appears to many people to contravene the highest law in the land.
 

eider

Well-known member
Because tell me, please, what arms meant in 1789-1791. I want examples, of arms, in 1791, in America. All examples will be considered.

I'll start: guns, of all types.

Your turn.
Are you telling me that only arms as meant in 1789-91 count?
Your turn.
 

eider

Well-known member
What's it for where you live?
Do you care about where I live?
Now why would the US want to carry out crim checks on applicants if those folks have a right to defend their homes?
Bearing arms is being armed. You can be armed with what's in your hand, strapped around your shoulder, in your backpack, in your car, mounted on your porch, towed by your tractor, all the ways to be armed is what bearing arms means. Taking up arms is synonymous with bearing arms, it means being armed.
If you want to write your own dictionary then Camel could mean elecphant if you wish, but my english oxford dictionary tells me that bear means;
bear, bore, borne. ....carry, shoulder, and then moves on in to child birth etc. ,,,or a large heavy animal.
Courts haven't yet provided the insight we need to solve this one.
Stop you there.
Are you telling me that you need Courts to provide direction about all this?
Incidentally our Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment implies the right to self-defense, so it's not uncontroversial to say that it's only about defense of States and militia. It's about States and militia, because it's really about the right to self-defense, is what the Court basically said.
Are you telling me that you accept Supreme Court Rulings?
Sure.

The gun culture in America is diverse, and currently, we're in the minority.
Irrelevant, surely?
An Amendment to the Constitution is solkid, isn't it?
Or not so?
Why are you asking? Is it because it appears to plainly conflicts with our Constitution's Second Amendment? Because I think that too, but the Supreme Court has ruled at least in passing that there exists regulations, red tape, and other rigmarole that do not violate the Constitution when it comes to accessing guns /arms, even though it appears to many people to contravene the highest law in the land.
Do you accept any Supreme Court rulings, regulations, red tape, rigmaroles etc?
 

Right Divider

Body part
A mentally ill person who previously has had a shotgun seized by police ... buying rifles legally at a later date, and going on to murder 7 people and injure 7 others. You don't seem to have too many ideas about preventing such situations in future, and so I wonder why he could not have purchased a machine gun, or a grenade launcher, or a....... after all, they are all arms that can be borne.

Do you think a convicted bank robber should be allowed to purchase rifles? Is that a greater or lesser risk, I wonder? Home defence?
I'm not sure of the "perfect" answer.
But I know that the absolutely wrong answer is to take away everyone's rights.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Because tell me, please, what arms meant in 1789-1791. I want examples, of arms, in 1791, in America. All examples will be considered.

I'll start: guns, of all types.

Your turn.
If you wanna blow your mind, Google search Canada banned knives.
 
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